- This topic has 37 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 5 months ago by brokenheartedgirl1234.
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10th July 2021 at 5:32 pm #128580ISOPeaceParticipant
Someone posted recently about their partner having sex with them while they’re asleep. I’d recently read an article that said the law is crystal clear: if you can’t give consent (e.g.when you’re asleep) it’s rape. But what about the times when we say yes to sex just to keep the peace?
I mean if your partner said “can I kick you in the head? You know it’s important to me. I’m really hurt that you’re saying no. Don’t you love me? Blah blah blah” nobody would think that’s OK and would be wondering what else has happened to make you agree.
I’m guessing nearly everyone on here has said yes to sex just to keep the peace many times. We all know the background to this is a much wider context of threats and abuse. They don’t need to say “if you say no I’ll make your life hell” They don’t need to say that. My ex would even say “of course you can say no” but I knew he was choosing not to say “but you’ll be punished for it”.
I imagine in a healthy relationship people have sex when they don’t feel like it sometimes, but I guess the difference is that they’re not doing it for fear or punishment.
I suppose it’s part of a much bigger issue about boundaries being violated. It’s definitely a boundary violation so is that rape? If it isn’t rape, is that the same as saying we’ve chosen to stay in an abusive situation so we’ve consented more generally? But that is just crazy….
So I think it is rape if it’s done to avoid punishment but I’m having a hard time accepting that in that case I’ve been raped many, many times.
Hope this isn’t too triggering for those of you reading it. I’d love to hear your thoughts.x*x
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10th July 2021 at 5:54 pm #128583KIP.Participant
Hi there. If you think about a complete stranger in your bed. And you say to this stranger that you don’t want to have sex and he threatens you and you feel you have to have sex for your own safety or to prevent some sort of punishment then that’s rape. It’s exactly the same for a husband or boyfriend. Have a look at Thames Valley Police video ‘a cup of tea’ x you have a right to say no and expect your wishes to be accepted x
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10th July 2021 at 5:58 pm #128584KIP.Participant
At the beginning of my relationship I was the one that instigated sex more often. But as the abuse increased I didn’t want to have sex with a man who hurt me and then the coercion began. It’s about a power and control thing. It’s about you saying no and them not accepting that because then you have the power. If your husband said he didn’t want sex, would you threaten and coerce and bully and even when you know he didn’t want sex would you carry on anyway, even if he’s giving out the signals that he didn’t want to (obviously it’s different physically for a man but it’s still sexual contact). Anyone who has sexual contact with someone who isn’t clearly into it and consenting is just sick and yes a rapist if penetration occurs x
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11th July 2021 at 10:17 am #128614littledoveParticipant
It’s in the title of your post. The minute someone feels coerced into sex just so they can have an “easy life” in my eyes is classed as rape. As it’s someone having sex with you when you don’t want it
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11th July 2021 at 5:47 pm #128649nbumblebeeParticipant
You dont want it do you? He asks I reply with no but we have sex anyway. I dont push him off i dont argue i just lay there as if i dont he will get grumpy and nasty for days on end sometimes even silence for days. Ive felt like a prostitute in the past as if the kids needed anything id ask him for money and hed say well you know what to do after he would give me the money.
When im on a period i feel i must help him out as he gets the arse then too.
Do i see this as rape no I dont. Ive always thought it was a normal marriage. To me rape is forcing through violence or when someone is not able to say no. I am able I choose not to say no just for a quiet life. I sound so harsh and I am so sorry for that. Sadly I also know what it is like to be raped b4 I met my husband. This is a very hard and interesting point. X*x -
11th July 2021 at 6:25 pm #128652AnonymousInactive
Its one of those weird grey areas with the law someone I knew threatened to hurt people I cared about if I didn’t do what he wanted and knowing how sick he was I just did and even when I said no and they did it anyway I still though cos it was my relationship I was still blinkered they know what they’re doing they’re stealthy sometimes the threat or something is the equivalent of having an invisible gun to head and there’s no proof they know this
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11th July 2021 at 6:58 pm #128653KIP.Participant
The proof comes when other women make the same accusations so I’d encourage any woman who has been sexually assaulted to report to the police. Chances are you won’t be the only one he’s sexually assaulted or raped x
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12th July 2021 at 8:24 am #128671MarmiteParticipant
With my partner this is one of the main problems between us. He will just keep on about it until I give it to him just to shut him up. It’s not that he will be violent to me if I don’t have sex with him, he just will not give up trying and touching despite me saying no. It’s the wearing me down until he gets his way.
Also he has said that he wouldn’t do the same to someone else. Like if he was in a pub trying it on with someone, if they said no he wouldn’t carry on, but with me he does.
He has also tried to blame me by saying he cant read my mood on whether I want it or not, despite me saying no! -
12th July 2021 at 9:50 am #128675SecretlifeParticipant
ISOpeace, your post has really made me think. I see sex with him as an absolute chore and I feel like a prostitute. I do it simply to make my days more bearable and to avoid the moods and silence treatment. I have never thought of it as rape as I could say no, and suffer the emotional punishment afterwards. I’ve always considered rape as physically violent. But as I think about thus, I suppose it is like rape, having sex with someone knowing they don’t want to and only doing it for your own pleasure, yes, that is so very wrong. For me, the fact that I have no feelings for him mean I am ‘just going through the motions’ and he know this but really doesn’t care. It is awful to think that they actually do have such physical control over us. I feel powerless to be able to do anything about this.
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12th July 2021 at 11:00 am #128682Jedi warriorParticipant
Been struggling with coming to terms with what is pressure for sex from my husband for years ruined our marriage and my feelingsfor him ..if I said no would wear me down ..slam doors nastiness tell me I wasn’t too tired to read or hobbies ..would ask daily had I finished my period ..after months of councilling I now understand so much more about coercive behaviour emotional abuse to get what they want Not normal behaviour always thought giving in when I quite clearly stated NO !! No should mean no otherwise its rape ..a word I cannot quite come to terms with in marriage but there is a difference between wanting to please your partner if you don’t feel like it but should never be under pressure or they don’t take no for an answer get nasty then it must be rape ..I used to think it was part of my marriage I now know that wasn’t a healthy marriage suffered years of anxiety because of such behaviour .taken me years to walk away but glad I have .
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12th July 2021 at 4:12 pm #128690nbumblebeeParticipant
Yep I get all this too. Am so glad you made it out. I honestly truely believe that this was just normal in a marriage never have i ever seen it as abuse and especially not rape. So hard to see thi isnt it?
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12th July 2021 at 3:26 pm #128687ISOPeaceParticipant
Wow, thank you all for your honest responses. I find all the different perspectives really helpful in understanding my own situation but I feel really sad to hear what you’ve all experienced. I read somewhere a theory that all abuse from men is about sex. I’m not sure I agree with that, but it’s probably fair to say that virtually all controlling relationships involve sexual abuse.
You’re so right KIP, the answer is in the question!
@nbumblebee I don’t think I could have accepted that it was rape while I was with him, so I understand what you’re saying. It’s hard to see it as rape when you’re consciously consenting. But like Auriel said, it’s like there is an invisible gun to your head (what an amazing description Auriel). Sometimes the invisible gun is more obvious than other times. I think the background of abuse and knowing that if they don’t get what they want they’ll punish us means there’s always an invisible gun.Having said that, even now that I’ve left it’s hard to accept that I allowed it to happen. I have this feeling that it’s my fault for letting myself be so degraded and I shouldn’t have let it happen. I don’t know why I seem to be able to accept the other types of abuse so much more easily. It’s like I now think that I would have been better/stronger or something if I’d said no and put up with the fall out because my ex was not physically abusive. Perhaps I’m falling into the trap of minimising the effect of emotional abuse. I also wonder whether all the messages about consent and having the right to say no get messed up when there’s abuse. We’re told we have the right (and responsibility?) to protect our boundaries and say no, but we all know that abuse is all about violating boundaries. So we’re being told we should say no, but even we forget about the invisible gun that stops us saying no, and then we feel bad that we’re not doing what women are supposed to have the right to do.
Then there were all the times I wanted to have sex, because for a long time it meant he wasn’t angry with me any more and we’d be back in the honeymoon phase. I can accept that from a legal perspective that’s not rape, unless there was some law that said a background of abuse and invisible guns negates consent (I think our legal system is a long way from that kind of complexity). But from a moral perspective it kind of is. I mean it’s most definitely wanting have sex for the wrong reasons, because of having been terrorised. xxxx
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12th July 2021 at 4:17 pm #128692nbumblebeeParticipant
@isopeace Im gonna say it out loud for the first time ever. At 19 I was raped by a family member, i believe i was drugged which meant I couldnt fight him off.I never saw it as rape as I believe I was drugged I just remember waking up to find him on top of me and i was unable to move at all. Now i can see that most likely was rape. What my husband does says doesnt feel like rape either doesnt seem like rape its so hard isnt it to try and look at your life whilst you are living it.
I just cant see it as I couldnt back then.
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12th July 2021 at 5:22 pm #128697AnonymousInactive
Hi nbumblebee, just wanted to send a big hug and show you some support. That was a very brave thing to post. I think that if you couldn’t consent because of being drugged then that would certainly be rape in my book, but I am no expert. Hope you are feeling OK xxxx
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12th July 2021 at 7:27 pm #128702nbumblebeeParticipant
@marmot
Thank you x*x -
12th July 2021 at 5:31 pm #128698ISOPeaceParticipant
@nbumblebee, you are so brave to share that! I hope you have some sense of relief from sharing it. It sounds like an absolutely terrible thing to have experienced. I hope you’re able to get some support about it when you feel ready. I can imagine that in comparison, what your husband does doesn’t seem like rape. It’s just so complicated.
I think you’re absolutely right that you can’t see things the same while you’re living it. But I do think you can slowly detach little by little, just enough to get away, in your own time of course. The fact that you’re even involved in the conversation shows that you’re not totally blinded by what’s going on. I can definitely think of a time when I would’ve thought the suggestion that it’s rape was ridiculous. xxxxx
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12th July 2021 at 7:38 pm #128703nbumblebeeParticipant
@isopeace many Thanks as always you are so supportive and you make so much sense when not much else does. I really do hope one day I can see it too. Big hugs x
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12th July 2021 at 3:34 pm #128688KIP.Participant
Yes when sex is involved it complicates things because women tend to bond with sex making it even more confusing. I was violently raped the first time we had sex and that set the bar for me. Give in to sex or go through that again. It only took that one occasion. I’m a fast learner. It’s the word no I believe is what abusers can’t stand. My ex said that he was aggressive because he didn’t get enough sex so I had sex every day for three days to try and stop him abusing me but by day four he was bored with it. Didn’t want it. It’s the control, not the sex that is important to abusers x
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12th July 2021 at 4:02 pm #128689AnonymousInactive
Interesting question. Made me think. My ex would coerce, threaten to leave, remind me of all he did for me and kids and storm out if I said no. Basically the word no, would have adverse consequences and I had to balance things up. In fairness, I still “loved” or was trauma bonded to him so only wanted to say no on some occasions. Do I consider it rape on the bad occasions? No. I consented. That is the acid test for court isn’t it? I class it as part of his control, but not a separate rape offence. Appreciate others have different views.
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12th July 2021 at 4:15 pm #128691KIP.Participant
The test for court is if you consented freely without fear of consequences or coercion and were in a state of mind when you could consent. Not on drugs or drunk or sleeping. For me giving in to keep the peace was giving in to not get hurt again.
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12th July 2021 at 5:08 pm #128693AnonymousInactive
Hi KIP, I am not a criminal lawyer but my limited understanding is that there is a rebuttable presumption that there is no consent if violence is used or threatened to get sex. There is then a presumption that there was no consent and that the man knew this. It is open to the man to produce evidence to the contrary.
In my case no violence was threatened.
I am not aware of the law involving coercion which does not amount to threats of violence.
Yes I think if a woman is unable to consent because she is asleep, drunk or under the influence of drugs then this means no consent.
But as I say, I am no expert on criminal law.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to evidence which is one of the reasons so many rape cases are not charged/fail in court.-
22nd August 2021 at 2:11 pm #130440KIP.Participant
Yes I remember reading about perpetrators of rape being asked by the police to explain how they knew that consent was given by the victim. I used to get trapped in a room until I agreed but also the behaviour of you partner is no different to a complete stranger. So if a complete stranger trapped me in a room until I consented to get out, they should be treated exactly the same way as a husband, boyfriend or someone known to you. There’s an argument that it may be worse being abused by someone you trust. It’s certainly utterly confusing and soul destroying x and such a breach of trust x
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12th July 2021 at 5:47 pm #128699ISOPeaceParticipant
Maybe the law in this country is not a great benchmark to use, even though I know I started this thread! I was horrified when I heard that rape within marriage only became a crime in the 1990s. I just googled it and found an article that said a survey of 4000 people showed that a third of people didn’t think non consensual sex within marriage was rape if there was no violence and more than a third of the over-65s did not consider forced marital sex rape. Just shocking. I wonder whether the law is different in other more forward thinking countries.
I think the definition of rape should be sex when consent was not given freely, or not given at all. You can’t give consent freely when you’re under someone else’s control. You could argue that you can’t give it freely when you’re trauma bonded… but so few rape cases lead to conviction as it is that I struggle to see how anyone would benefit from the law changing.
I guess the most important thing is to educate women and girls that regardless of how the law sees it, it’s one of the ways an abuser violates our personal boundaries and it’s completely normal to feel s****y and traumatised by it. xxxx
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12th July 2021 at 6:17 pm #128701KIP.Participant
I read of a student who was raped and spent the rest of the semester trying to get the man to be her boyfriend. When I was raped I felt a bond to the man who raped me. It’s incredibly destructive to mind and body.
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14th July 2021 at 1:40 pm #128785ISOPeaceParticipant
Oh my goodness, I can’t really put into words how awful that sounds. I’m really sad to hear that you had you experience that. I know you are incredibly strong and have done a lot of healing work but I’m sending you a hug anyway.
This shows how limited general knowledge is about the effect of trauma. Having read about trauma, what you describe sadly doesn’t surprise me but I would expect most people would be very surprised. xxxx
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14th July 2021 at 6:18 pm #128797KIP.Participant
Thank you. Yes I’ve done a lot of healing work but also a lot of reading to understand the dynamics of abuse and grooming. There will always be that power imbalance. We think we have won first prize when in fact we have won the booby prize.
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22nd August 2021 at 11:02 am #130437EyesopeningParticipant
This is a tough subject and your all so brave to put it out there like this.
I have been wondering about this topic.
I definitely think there is nothing wrong with not saying ‘no’ in an abusive relationship because what if that one ‘no’ is the no that pushes it to physical violence. To me the more you stand up to them the worse their abuse will become so there is no shame in protecting yourself in these relationships.
I know I didn’t say no it many times. I did at first in the relationship, but slowly i was changed by him. I remember even when I was seriously ill he would make me have sex with him, i would say I didn’t want to but he wouldn’t leave me alone till he got his way…
It was on his terms, if he wanted sex we had to have sex. If i wanted it, he didn’t want it.
He would always tell me there was something wrong with me for not ever having much sex drive. Or he would tell me stuff like ‘you’ve shrunk my d***’ for not having enough sex. But he didn’t help us have more sex because he was either too stoned/drunk or keeping us out busy(so he could drink).
He’d tell me not to tell him when I’m due on my period because he doesn’t want to know.
If i ever had a sex drive and enjoyed it, he would make fun of me, the last time he said ‘your a horny b***h’ (pretending to mimic that Friends scene)
Sometimes he would be so rough that i felt like an object or that he was punishing me. It was horrible and i hated those times but that was rare.
Then there was the the hurting my nipples, they would be sore for days.
I remember in the past I couldn’t relax in bed and would be all tense and I didn’t understand why, he would tell me ‘relax it’s me’. Now i am starting to see why i may have been tense.
He wouldn’t give me time to be ready too so it would hurt.
Also I can’t get smear tests anymore and my GP asked if i had been sexually abused, I didn’t really know at the ytime. It really was confusing
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22nd August 2021 at 1:59 pm #130439KIP.Participant
Yes the lectures for hours about my lack of sex drive. But who wants to have sex with someone who hurts them 💕
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23rd August 2021 at 12:59 pm #130463givemepeaceParticipant
This is so true, and I recognize it all so well.
So many times I have said yes to sex, just to keep the peace, or with the hope of making life just a little easier.And then, how can we explain it. We all do many things that we do not want to keep things well. Like I wash the house, I do the laundry etc even tough I do not feel like it, but because I want to keep it nice for my familiy. And that is okey. But how do we argue that.. sex.. is not okey. Because of the emotional impact it has,… how do we explain why that is not okey?
Probably a stupid question, but I had this discussion with my husband and I found it so had to argue back. He meant it is okey to not always be into what you are doing, but that it is a gesture out of love. I do not always like to massage you either he says, but I do it to be nice. Why is sex such a big issue then he says, if it doesnt physically hurt.
Help me out here, what would you answer?
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25th August 2021 at 1:13 pm #130574ISOPeaceParticipant
Firstly, whatever you say, he’s not going to see things differently, because abusers are only interested in their own perspective. Sadly, whether you say something to him or not, he will continue to be unreasonable. You can’t have an honest conversation about this with him as honesty involves bringing up the abuse, which he won’t acknowledge and will either turn back on you or you’ll go round in circles. It’s up to you whether you want to stand your ground with him. Whatever you choose is ok, just try not to put yourself at too much risk.
But for the benefit of understanding your own personal boundaries I would say this. At the most basic level, it’s your body and you have the 100% right to decide what happens to it. That is your basic human right (but abusers don’t respect basic human rights). In the context of abuse, normal rules do not apply when there’s abuse. Sure in healthy relationships I’m sure people do things like have sex sometimes when they don’t really feel like it as a loving gesture, but that is not the same as having sex to avoid punishment. Having sex out of obligation or duty or to avoid punishment is degrading, because somebody else is using your body for pleasure, with no regard for your feelings. It is exploitation, which is why it feels degrading. It doesn’t matter that it isn’t painful physically, your emotional pain is just as important.
This might sound a bit extreme, but would it be ok for him to sh!t on you if he really enjoyed it? It wouldn’t physically hurt you. Would that make it ok? Or would it feel like him using your body for his pleasure, with no regard for how you feel? Btw don’t use this example with him. He would probably say something like “you’re comparing me having sex with you to having a sh!t? How little do you think of me? You should enjoy sex with me…..” and so it would go on.
I honestly think that doing all the housework even though you don’t want to could actually be similar. He is exploiting you if you’re doing things for him in a way that doesn’t balance out in the relationship. It probably doesn’t feel so degrading because it’s not so intimate. I mean if you had to be slave would it be more degrading to be a cleaner or a sex slave?
The fact that you have to justify your personal boundaries is an issue in itself. In a healthy relationship, the other person may want to understand your boundary better, but it wouldn’t be reasonable for them to push it. If they weren’t happy with it, the healthy response would be to leave. But of course when there’s abuse, boundaries are not respected as weapon of control.
When I was with my ex, I ended up either making up excuses or saying that because things were so bad between us I didn’t want to have sex. He would then say how that was all my fault etc. They will always find way for your perspective to not be ok. xxxx
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23rd August 2021 at 7:03 pm #130477KIP.Participant
Ask him why he would even want to have sex with someone who doesn’t want to.
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2nd November 2021 at 7:24 pm #133351Pink-butterflyParticipant
I can’t believe how many people have said this? I always thought i was the only one going through this. I make up excuses all the time not to have sex and he then guilt trips me because he wants me and does a lot for me etc making me feel like I need to otherwise he will threaten to leave or take the kids or take my car from me. Or whatever he can do.
We haven’t actually had sex for over a month now and he hasn’t been bugging me he has given up I think but I’m scared that soon he’s going to go mad at me any day soon. Normally we have a massive row and gets out of hand at least once a month. -
2nd November 2021 at 11:06 pm #133368AnonymousInactive
I think it’s good that someone has posted on this thread to bring the subject back up.
I think it’s easier to see things like financial abuse or emotional abuse as there are often witnesses or there might be objective proof.
With this is going to be more difficult as it’s intimate and one word against another – one perspective against another.
For someone accused of not remembering things clearly it’s also another mind game that’s played over what really happened.
Where is the line drawn between not wanting to and being woken up from sleep to satisfy another and being told (detail removed by moderator) just let me touch you. Which is ridiculous as being touched when you don’t want it is going to wake you and you know the only way to get back to sleep is to attend to their needs so you can sleep again or it will be bad moods or them thrashing around in the bed until you wake anyway.
Pushing their hands away saying I’m tired I need to sleep – is that a no? If it continues on is it coercive? To be told I just need help so I can sleep. That is nothing like a loving sexual relationship is it?
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4th November 2021 at 10:56 pm #133497oxbutterflyxoParticipant
Hi I have been struggling with this recently.. I left an emotionally abusive relationship about (removed by moderator) years ago but never was able to speak about this, I was always pressured to have sex with my ex or it would be ‘you don’t love me’ or make me feel awful and I would always give in and I guess at the time this was ‘normal’ this has now been such a huge struggle as on the one hand I am (removed by moderator) years free of him and I now have a partner who is so respectful and I only recently opened up about this to him as I was so worried he would think there was something wrong with me for not wanting sex.. (he was so supportive on this) but I have struggled so much i feel in silence and has completely wiped anything positive about sex for me does anyone else have this and will it always be this way?
I didn’t even process this until recently and do feel I am struggling to understand this at times too -
5th November 2021 at 12:28 am #133500StuckinturmoilParticipant
I woke up in the middle of the night years ago to find my husband half inside me. It was the middle of the night I hadn’t just nodded off after drinking. I was so upset. I felt abused. He said he didn’t understand why I was upset as he would be delighted if the roles were reversed. Was this rape?
It hasn’t happened since but if he asks
For sex I will say no but he will start touching me trying to arouse me when I have said no until he gets what he wants. He doesn’t check for consent just carry’s on I think I have said no once and he doesn’t care. I have to close my eyes and pretend it’s not him. -
5th November 2021 at 9:27 am #133509CantmakedecisonsParticipant
In the early days I definitely just said yes to avoid being punished. Sometimes the punishment wouldn’t be physical, maybe silence for hours or days. I felt guilty not wanting to but as time went on and the more abusive he became I didn’t feel guilt or anything but fear. By the end he wanted me to say no, to resist and that’s what he enjoyed the most. I had no choice, not even a choice to take the punishment or not. He was going to have sex with me wether I liked it or not and the more terrified I was the more glee he had in his eyes.
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5th November 2021 at 9:29 am #133510Jedi warriorParticipant
After counselling and doing a program I can now say it out loud how my long marriage was sexually abusive coercive in a healthy relationship your partner would not pressure you I would not want to have sex with someone who clearly didn’t..it destroyed my marriage and feelings out now but he still does not see how it affected me ..
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7th November 2021 at 11:19 pm #133653brokenheartedgirl1234Participant
A complainant who is threatened with violence by an offender immediately before a request for sex is made is unlikely to be exercising a free choice. Assuming that the complainant has both the freedom and capacity to consent, the crucial question is whether the complainant agrees to the activity by choice.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/sexual-offences
i think this means if your partner was violent before the sex or u was threatened he will hit u so u had sex to keep the peace its rape by law check out the cps website
i hope your okay and sending my prayers over to you angel
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