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    • #136550
      Plodding
      Participant

      Hi I’m really struggling with this atm. How much do n********ts know about how they behave and why the reason for their Behaviour . I find it confusing because one minute I’m at the point of thinking “he knows what he is doing and it is deliberate “ then the opposite. Iv recently listened to HG Tudor utube something I came across on a Facebook thread about n********m and although very powerful and made sense it also talks about how they don’t alwYs know they are doing it or is it that they don’t all know the reason behind their behaviour eg the control . I know it’s all about power and control but do they al KNOW this ? Iv read why does he do that by Lundy Bancroft which was really good . Has anyone heard of HG Tudor ? What do u think of it and anyone got anything else I can read that would help me understand? Thanks

    • #136553
      Twisted Sister
      Participant

      Hi Plodding

      your best source of information about abusers tactics, abuse generally and their inner workings is the Freedom Programme, here, Womens Aid, and Lundy Bancroft (Why does he do that).

      IDK about n********m as that is a psychological classification of a personality disorder, and very difficult to diagnose, whereas abuse has different background.

      Pat Craven, who is the founder of the Freedom Programme, worked with male offenders in prison, and they told her about all their tactics that they use, that they seem to have in common, to the point that she made a programme that explains the tactics through the use of particular personas. So, ‘the bad father’, ‘the headworker’, ‘the liar’. It makes it very easy to see through them, and what they’re doing, and yes, I’d say they are fully aware of, based on my personal experience and learning.

      So many times its only when you pull them up short and react strongly against what they’re doing that they suddenly change and start love bombing/gift giving etc in order to coerce you back into line, its text book knowing what to do. Sadly, to my cost, I found out that it was only me that didn’t know what he was doing, he knew all along, grim 🙁

      warmest wishes ts

    • #136558
      Bananaboat
      Participant

      The question that popped into my head reading your post was ‘what would that change’? I don’t mean to sound harsh but I wonder if you’re looking for a way to justify/excuse the behaviour, don’t worry if you are, we’ve all done it. Another thought is even if he didn’t know what he was doing/saying at the time, he can see the after effects, and did he change when he knew he’d hurt you or has he just chosen to carry on unchanged. I’m sure with any beliefs/values/ingrained behaviours there’s an element of not knowing or reacting without thought but that’s only part of the overall picture. Dr Ramani is good on YouTube, Pat Craven and Lundy Bancroft have all been my most helpful sources.

    • #136559
      ISOPeace
      Participant

      I’ve heard people ask this a lot and I honestly believe that trying to know for sure can get in the way of accepting that he is abusive. I agree that getting a better understanding of what’s happening is really valuable, but I’m not sure that there’s a consensus view on this one. Sure there will be times when they can say “I hit her because she did X and I’m not going to let my wife do that”, but I wouldnt’ be surprised if some of the more subtle ways to control are just instinctive self serving behaviours, which to them are totally normal, because they don’t know the difference between love and control.

      Like Twisted Sister said, you don’t know that he’s a n********t unless he gets a professional diagnosis. I don’t know how familiar you are with n**********c vs non-n**********c abuse. Not all abusers are n*********s – there is a lot of overlap in the behaviours, but there are differences. So I would be cautious about using a n**********c model to understand a particular person.

      I’m not convinced that my ex consciously knows what he’s doing all the time (sometimes he certaintly does), but I don’t think that makes it any better or worse. If some of it is not conscious, then I’d see it as a deep rooted pattern that is second nature to him (and that he thinks is ok), which he learnt growing up. I don’t think that makes him any less responsible for his actions. There’s a reason the abuse was all behind closed doors – he knows it’s not ok.

      I think my ex would tell himself that he’s a great person, kind and thoughtful. I think he has a fantasy that he is perfect husband material. Deep down he knows it’s a fantasy, but he works so hard to believe it. I think on some level he believes himself when he says he’s only doing what any other man would do. Does that mean he’s good really, because he wants to be a good person? No! His priority is his wants/needs and his ego. He has no genuine empathy for a partner. He is simply not capable of being a respectful partner and he has no interest in changing, not that I think he could. He spent years being cruel and therefore he had years to see that his behaviour was not ok. Genuinely kind people don’t think it’s ok to make other people suffer.

      So if you feel like you get stuck on this question, it might be helpful to ask why you need to know. XXXX

      • #136583
        Plodding
        Participant

        Bananaboat that is exactly it I need to justify it and feel a Sense of how severe it is to give me a good enough reason so I can say “right that is it “! And also because of the questioning and confusion in between the negative stuff the good (or ok ish) behaviour returns .

      • #136584
        Plodding
        Participant

        I can relate to the dwelling on this question and it getting in the way of accepting
        Thanks so helpful

    • #136569
      Grey Rock
      Participant

      Hiya. It might be worth watching some of the Prof Sam Vaknin YouTube videos. He is himself a n********t and explains their thinking in a frank and clear way.

      Let’s put it this way, when they want to reel us back in they certainly understand enough to act the charming and apologetic prince. So thet know enough about what they’re doing to stop it when it serves them to do so. But for most n**********c people their behaviour causes problems for others. It gets them what they want most of the time so it’s not a problem for them. That’s also why it’s pretty rare for them to get diagnosed as NPD.

      In the end I stopped asking myself about what he does and doesn’t understand. I turned the focus into what would lead me to a calm, content life, because he wasn’t ever going to change. Ever.

      Someone asked me “if you’re standing on a burning deck is a good idea to hang around and figure out what caused the fire, or is it better to use the energy to find a lifeboat?”. I looked for a lifeboat after too many times going back to try and help him and getting burnt.

      GR x*x

    • #136574
      nbumblebee
      Participant

      Gosh i think about this all the time. I often wonder if he knows just how much he hurts me how much his words make me hurt myself and actually does he really care?
      I want the answer to be no so badly. How can anyone who says they love you who says you are their world hurt you so much? They all seem to follow the same pattern the cycle of abuse the hurt the pain then the love the happi ess then back round again and again its like they do know what they are doing. But if they do know if they do understand then my god they are horrible horrible humans right? And we dont deserve that do we? If they dont know if its something they cant help if theres something wrong somewhere then maybe we can help them change them?
      I desperatly want to understand why he does what he does because Id love the answer to be the latter that no they dont understand so I can some how save him and us but is this right? Im not so certain it is so I dont want to look to understand as im scared at what i might find out.
      Be careful sweetie be careful with this search you may not get the answer you are hoping for.
      Stay safe and strong xxxxxx

      • #136585
        Plodding
        Participant

        Thanks that is very helpful x

      • #136622
        ISOPeace
        Participant

        Nbumblebee, that sounds like a horrible loop to be caught in. I can see that your mind is trying really hard to work out how things can be made better. But the idea that he can’t help it, so there’s something wrong so he can be helped sadly isn’t realistic. From what I’ve read on abuse I just don’t think you can help him change:

        You can only help somebody who wants to be helped, whatever the issue is. From his perspective things are working out fine, so there is no incentive for him to change.

        You can also only help someone if there’s enough of you available to provide them with support and you have the strength and objectivity to do things that they may not want you to do e.g. if they were a drug addict you might refuse to give them money for drugs. Living with abuse means you’re using all your resources to just survive. Even if it were possible for him to change (which is highly unlikely from all the evidence) it would take a long time and it’s not realistic that you could both take all the abuse and reliably give him the support he would need. He would still be controlling you and you would still be trying your best to survive the abuse. You wouldn’t be working as a team. So if for example he was working on respecting boundaries, to help him you’d need to assert some boundaries, while knowing that he’s probably going to punish you for doing so. Lundy Bancroft recommends perpetrators who genuinely want to change have to do it away from their partner.

        Also, he would somehow need to see that the problem is 100% his and nothing to do with what he currently sees as a response to what you do. Until he could change that perspective, his idea of you helping him change would involve you doing what he thinks you need to do to change, which of course won’t help him change and will reinforce his belief that you’re the problem (either you change and it’s not good enough or you don’t change and so you’re not doing your part).

        So the only way you can really help him have any chance of changing is to leave him (and mean a full, no contact split) and accept that best case scenario it will likely take him years of work. On top of that he would need to find people supporting him – the people he currently has in his life are people who support or at least turn a blind eye to the abuse. Most likely there will be no lasting change. It’s not love to stand by someone while they destroy you, even if it feels like love, it’s a trauma bond. And it’s not wrong to leave that person even if you think they need help. Sending love xxxx

      • #136624
        Wants To Help
        Participant

        @ISOPeace – that is a fantastic response and very well worded 🙂

      • #136632
        nbumblebee
        Participant

        Thank you so much. Deep down if i am really honest with myself I know this.
        Somehow staying and trying to help him trying to keep my marriage alive seems easier ive been here putting up with his nastiness for decades im getting old whats the point in leaving now?
        I would hurt him the kids the family it doesnt seem worth it maybe its me im not worth it?
        But Thank you you have given me alot to think about. Xxxxx

      • #136641
        Bananaboat
        Participant

        I think there’s a huge part of us ladies that wants to know we’ve done everything possible, tried every option, given our all – then and only then will we give up and feel guilt free. Either one day your mind/heart will just snap and feel different or, it won’t and you’ll stay but unlike 2 years ago you’ll be armed with a ton of knowledge to keep you and your kids safe x*x

      • #136658
        nbumblebee
        Participant

        Thank you @bananaboat I hope you are right as whilst I cant see a way out I dont wanna stay either. Xxxxx

    • #136591
      gettingtired
      Participant

      You can describe someone as n**********c but yes NPD would have to be diagnosed by a professional.
      As empathetic people, it’s so difficult to understand why they do what they do. I’ve learnt so much from the forum, books, therapy and YouTube videos/podcasts but even now I still have this huge cognitive dissonance about him (I’ve not left yet).
      I’d really recommend Dr Ramani on YouTube, her videos have really helped me x

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