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    • #39907
      equinoxal
      Participant

      There’s a bit in Lundy Bancroft’s book Why Does He Do That (if you’ve not read it you definitely should, it’s so enlightening) where he dispels a ‘myth’ that our abusive partners are (usually) not mentally ill, they’re just abusive. Well how do you differentiate? And ladies in your experience, has your partner been mentally ill or not? What mental illnesses do you think correspond to the abusive behaviour we see in our partners? If they are mentally ill and not simply just abusive, does that mean we should try to help them?

      My (now ex, i suppose) boyfriend had blow ups where he choked and strangled his mother, flew into rages at his grandmother and sister etc, would rant and rave to me about how stupid everyone around him was. If he is abusive to people other than me, is he just abusive or is he mentally ill?

      Please share your thoughts on this!!

    • #39909
      Serenity
      Participant

      Hi Equionoxal,

      The same question used to whirr around in my head.

      I know that Women’s Aid emphasises that abuse is separate from mental illness, that whilst someone might have an illness or personality disorder it’s not that which makes themmsbuss. Abuse is a set of beliefs and attitudes, a belief in certain entitlements.

      The most helpful advice I found came in the book ‘Boundaries After a Pathological Relationship’ by Adelyn Birch.

      She emphasises that abuse can be conscious on the part of the abuser, or it might be unintentional due to limitations in the abuser’s insight, understanding or ability to behave differently. But she stresses that this doesn’t mean that we should accept it or excuses for it.

      She stresses that we can try to figure out what an abuser’s intentions are, but all that matters is the presence of abusive behaviour and the effect it had on you. Your responsibility is to yourself first of all. You’re not here to bear the brunt or pay the debt of another’s issues. You have no obligation to be abused by anyone, no matter what their problem is.

      She says how certain research showed that once victims stopped trying tomsecind-guess why the abuser was abusing, wondering if they did or didn’t intend to hurt them, and instead recognised the abuser as accountable for their behaviour of their decision to treat someone in that way or to think they could be in a relationship when behaving as they do, they felt a huge increase in personal power and validation.

      I suppose that’s because they were purring responsibility for their own well being first, and not thinking that others had the basic right to ignore their boundaries, as at the end of the day it’s faulty thinking in our part to think that our rights and boundaries don’t or shouldn’t exist.

      The research also said that this breakthrough thinking on the part of the victim also made them aware of how they had previously been hesitant to recognise malevolent intentions to others and recognise the fact that not everyone in the world has others best intentions at heart- which might explain their experience of being abused multiple times by different people.

      This little book is great. It says how we will feel a huge increase in confidence once we change the faulty thinking that we need to accept whatever comes out way, and begin to set boundaries. Boundaries, combined with our experience and knowledge, can help us not to get enmeshed in a relationship which is pathological: that is, which destroys us, and at the end of the day does the abuser no good either, as they have been able to continue in unhealthy behaviours ( we have helped enable those unhealthy behaviours by accepting them) and have neither learned anything nor evolved.

      It’s hard for an empath or people pleaser to accept that they aren’t responsible for another’s problems, or they they should sometimes accept abuse, but this is the basic truth that will protect victims and – if anything will at all- propel abusers into seeking the help they need or facing responsibility for their issues.

      The game changer is this: that we have a responsibility to ourselves first and to protect ourselves from harm. Ignoring or denying this right is what makes us susceptible to abuse. It’s taking on board this belief that will change our lives and stop us from
      Being victims. It is this which will mean the difference between a life where we accept and are vulnerable to further abuse and a life where we can feel confident and happy, because we know that we can interact with others whilst protecting our safety and dignity and the unhealthy behaviours and demands of others. We can have confidence in our own self-protective boundary-setting, and don’t need to think that the only answer is is becoming a recluse in order to protect ourselves.

      Confident boundary setting for ourselves also allows us to be and to express our real doves and to be authentic, as we aren’t dismissing or stuffing down any of our born rights as a human being ( many of us have been raised in families where our rights were ignored or minimised, making it harder for us to recognise that we do indeed possess these rights).

      Aside from recognising that we have boundaries to uphold, Birch says we also need an awareness of our own weaknesses, vulnerabilities, faulty thinking, facts about and signs of psychological manipulation and what makes us vulnerable to abusers and predators, so we can enjoy a life where we have our closest relationships with those who recognise others’ rights and boundaries.

    • #39913
      Serenity
      Participant

      Typing error: our real selves, not doves

    • #39919
      danicali
      Blocked

      firstly, lundy bancroft… well, what a great man… and what a credit to his own mum… i agree anyone on here should google lundy bancroft and read what he has to say… i would also highly recommend to any mother about to go through the horror of family court – to google ways how good mums lose custody to abusive men

      secondly, whilst some men may suffer mental ill health, and they do, all too often abusive men just USE THIS as an excuse. they are not mentally ill, they are highly abusive control freaks who are TOTALLY in control when they want to be (in front of other people or courts) and they often have good jobs and seem totally normal in society, some even “pillars” of their community

      i also think that by digging into the psychology of these abusive men, we are almost looking for a way to excuse them for their behaviour… i don’t CARE why my ex is the way he is – he CHOSE to be this way and there is no excuse for it. yes, he may be self loathing, yes, he may have daddy issues with his own father, but none it is an excuse to do what he has done. Not even close.

      we can try to understand playground bullies as well, for instance if our kids are getting bullied… but know what? i’d sooner spend my time googling what bullying does to the victim, and not why bullys are bullys

      abusive men make their victims mentally ill, so let’s not be too quick to get the violins out (detail removed by Moderator) x

    • #39922
      Serenity
      Participant

      PS:

      Sorry for the many typing errors in my above post.

      I also wanted to say that focussing on what drives the abuser can keep us stuck in an abusive relationship.

      It’s like we think that the longer we are with an abuser, the more we can ‘understand’ and ‘help’ them, appreciate their issues and get them to trust and respect us for staying and trying to help them.

      In fact, the opposite happens. They end up disrespecting us for putting up with their behaviour. And what happens is, we become undone. We become riddled with anxiety, PTSD, ailments and mental health issues of our own as a result of their abuse.

      We are using so much of our energies trying to ‘understand’ and even ‘save’ our abuser that we have no headspace to consider our own basic needs. This is a dangerous focus to have.

      That’s why it’s so important to keep sight of our own rights and boundaries at all times, to fight the people pleasing tendency that makes us forget our own importance and never forget that our well being is our priority ( and from that good, healthy place we can give to those who deserve it).

    • #39933
      Jupiter
      Participant

      Thank you so much for great above posts on this often misunderstood topic.

      I agree that most abusers are not ill,just abusive and yes they use this to avoid looking at their unacceptable behaviour,including legal circles.If they were really ill, they would not have the energy or ability to plan all their manipulations,often on a grand scale.
      My ex made out I was plain crazy etc etc but now our young are grown, he is scared they will access the truth about his abuses and has dreamed up a ploy to stop them judging him.This is now a game of his victimhood eg he was bullied by his sibling,which i doubt very much.Makes my blood boil…When we were together, there was no mention of this at all and he spoke of the sibling with affection.
      My own view is that mental illness is usually not the cause of abuse or violence but their own distorted thinking ,as evidenced in the media.Famous abusers and worse often maintained full time jobs and wives too.In our culture ,this is seen as normal and successful,as measured by the psychiatric community.A patient is asked -Do you work- are you in a relationship?
      Abuse must never be excused. And there is a strange irony regarding mental illness between men and women: for females this is a put down but men are given sympathy with respect.
      Jupiter

    • #39942
      itmustbemesurely
      Participant

      my husband has mental health and alcohol problems, he is also abusive. He blames me for both his state of mind and is heavy drinking – I am to blame to neither, nor am I do blame for his mental well being. His mother is a n********t and he has those traits too, my life would revolve around him if he had his way and everything has to be done for him, his way or the highway, his needs must be meet before those of even his own children! In my case I’m not sure which came first the abuse or his other problems. He is so deluded at times, excuses me of all sorts, is horrid – really really nasty, but that’s usually when he has been drinking heavily – the combination isn’t great x

    • #39962
      Dragonfly
      Participant

      My ex has NPD. He also suffered with depression and drinking too much alcohol – every day. I don’t use NPD flippantly. He does have this condition – fact!

      I’m not surprised he’s depressed and drinking. It must be unbelievably hard work being a n********t. This does not excuse him attacking me and controlling me. It’s a conscious choice.

      Thank god I got away because I don’t think I’d be here now.

    • #39964
      Lisa
      Main Moderator

      Hi all,

      I wanted to clarify that Women’s Aid believes that domestic abuse is a gendered crime and is about power and control.

      A lot of women believe that abuse is caused by their partner’s mental health condition (for example, their partner might have bipolar disorder, depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), n**********c personality, borderline personality or antisocial personality).

      While these are serious mental health conditions, they do not cause abuse.

      If the abuse were caused by mental illness, a perpetrator would also be abusive to family, friends and co-workers.

      Abuse and mental illness can happen at the same time. There are people who have a mental illness and are also abusive to their partners. There are also people who have a mental illness and are healthy and supportive partners.
      If your partner has a mental illness and is abusive towards you, it’s important to keep in mind that the mental illness and the abusive behaviours need to be handled separately by the abusive partner.
      It is the abusive partner’s responsibility to seek out support and create their own plan for managing their mental illness and be accountable for their abusive behaviour.
      If your partner is not owning up to their actions, is not admitting to how much they’re hurting you, and is not seeking out professional help then that’s a sign that your partner isn’t willing to change. If that’s the case, then the abuse in the relationship tends to continue and escalate over time.

      Even if your partner does have a mental illness, there is NEVER an excuse for abuse. Abuse is a choice someone makes in order to maintain power and control over a partner.

      Best wishes,

      Lisa

    • #39965
      Nova
      Participant

      Thanks Ladies & Lisa

      The main points to me are no excuses regardless of any issue of the abuser. None.
      If they have x y z I’ve heard it all from my ex… ADHT-Depression-Passive aggressive-a*s ache you name it

      Then he switches it ALL to me…your passive aggressive, arrogant, destructive, not who you think you are, etcetcetc…so it all goes round in circles…the main points I’m coming to terms with…are the ‘dance’ of confusion, the fog, the trauma bonding to a person who is detestable, yet I still wanted to think good of him, and felt like in my heart he loved me and me him…meanwhile Mr Evil was manipulating me & our lives.

      Thats what I call …joined up thinking…he knew what he was doing, sadly, all self serving to meet his needs. as pathetic as he was. My main thought at the time was, what a selfish self centered pig!
      (That is not to be taken lightly>>>as it forms a whole heap of doo doo from the get go)

      When I came back, excused his behaviour, I didnt want his confrontation/moods/egg shells/he’d cornered me basically…(because I couldn’t figure it out!!)

      I bigged him up as he was always a victim/loner/loser, accommodated him, put my needs behind his, let him ‘take over'(sympathy f**k..plain)…then he was King of MY castle. Me still pinning wondering why after putting in SO much effort time, money myself was I still scrabbling about in the dark, alone bewildered, lost, estranged, financially worse, socially hard up and no further forward. I sacrificed my self to let him be a bit of a ‘guy’…boosting him.

      Me thinking I was in something that was going to go somewhere with someone….Wrong! Reality check … he is a NOBODY GOING NOWHERE, because he thought by being with me, he was someone …than being alone. at MY EXPENSE! So the saddo is just that.

      cant edit this now if there spelling mistakes…so be it ladies : ) big subject matter..excuse my rude words but needed.!!

      Cx

    • #39974
      littlemixedup
      Participant

      Hi, gosh wow what a great subject.
      I often tried to give my ex phone numbers and website addresses so he could get help. He would say yes I look into it then nothing would happen. I used to think he must have a problem as to why he acted as he did but then as you ladies have described he would be doing it to other people. I never once thought of that. Maybe he does have underlying issues (bad upbringing, family stuff) but I’m not sure he would been classed as having an actual mental problem. I guess I’ll never know.

    • #39980
      Dragonfly
      Participant

      Lisa

      You are absolutely correct. I’m currently sitting in th GP waiting room because I don’t know how to deal with me being this wreck caused by an abusive man.

    • #39981
      Herindoors
      Participant

      @Serenity – I downloaded your book recommendation ‘Boundaries After a Pathological Relationship’ last night. Great read and I am going to work on defining my boundaries tonight. I am a few years now out of my abusive relationship and feel ready to meet someone new. However I know that I need to learn to set boundaries or I will probably just end up with an abuser again and that has been holding me back.
      You give great advice Serenty so just wanted to say thanks for all your posts and this book recommendation x

    • #39983
      itmustbemesurely
      Participant

      mine says bipolar – i agree it is, but he isn’t abusive to everyone – that was like a lightbulb switching on! I have detatched myself from him, his abuse/mental state has got worse. its up to him to get help, if hes doesn’t that’s it – it’s over, I promise myself that x*x

    • #39985
      deathangel
      Participant

      My partner has mental health issues and is abusive. I know they are separate things. I have been trying to encourage him for many years to get help with his mental health, his eating disorder, his OCD, his abusive behaviour, the list goes on. I have read Lundy’s books and some other books that all say the same thing. He has used his past, his mental health, his anger issues (which he says are caused by things and people outside of himself), things outside of himself, as excuses for verbally abusing me and members of his and my family (children specifically). He is not verbally abusive to everyone, he makes a choice, otherwise he would not hold down a job or seem like the Mr. Nice Guy that everyone outside of the abusive fallout perceives him to be. He praises me up (so he says) to his work colleagues and friends, yet makes me feel like a totally useless piece of garbage at home and in the relationship. I know I am not and the confusion and hurt outweigh the I am sorries now.

      My partner seems to think sorry and apologising are enough. I told him a long while back that sorries are futile without action to change the behaviour, which has never happened more than a week at a time. We went to relationship counselling which of course did not help, it was a place for me to vent safely and for him to tell me how much he wanted me to change. Did he change, has he changed, has he taken steps to stop the abusive behaviour? No. He also refused to pay (via our joint bills account) for my counselling and my courses that I want to attend because of the damage his behaviour has done to me mentally.

      He is totally accountable for his behaviour. I am none of those things he tells me I am. I have had enough. I am taking steps to improve myself (finding myself again) and make my dreams and my wishes reality. With or without him. I am tired of his mother telling me he is a typical (family surname). I am tired of his aunt saying he was neglected, give him a chance. What, all these years and years are not a chance? I am tired of not being validated (I cannot go to my father and talk about any of this, because he was abusive to me and my brother, when I was a child).

      Mental illness does not equal abuse. I too had been questioning the correlation. Forever the analyst and trying to get to the bottom of his rubbish. Nah, it is time for me. And mine. It will be a hard trip, but the ball is rolling.

    • #39995
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Hi I am 100% sure my abuser whomever I was with had serious mental health issues & that he was a pathological gambler. Like Lisa has just said my abuser was also vile to his mum, sister & others including my son. I completed the freedom project & my situation felt it had been very different, unlike the normal cycle of abuse, with my perpetrator the honeymoon period had no I love yous, No sorry I won’t do it again, my honeymoon period just consisted of no angry vile verbal outbursts! He scolded me over years for being a normal person doing normal everyday things eg using the washing machine, doing housework, putting the heating on He would be furious when garden birds sung & rant & rave at me as if it were my fault! I am away (detail removed by Moderator), myself & my adult son who lives with Me have both been traumatised by who we escaped. Every single thing about us our lives our loves feels destroyed. I truly feel emotionally disabled by that man who I was with over (detail removed by Moderator)! I witnessed him treat his elderly mum exactly the same. With me he could not even contain himself in public, would often reduce me to tears in public like in supermarkets! Then tell me I was fn pathetic. I was sent to silent treatment for up to 2 weeks for the most part I had no idea what either myself or my son had done wrong, The man was an utter control freak.. In answer to abuser or abuser with a serious mental health problem, I am completely convinced my abuser was both. I was accused countless times of trying to poison him, I’d hidden pot pouret Oils, put stuff in his food etc. I’m sorry this is such a long post, But if I could help anyone I Would, I was trapped with no escape years with man who was seriously mentally ill, I’m not sure if I’m allowed to write this but his Dad & brother both had schizophrenia, my abuser showed many traits of the disorder! I am convinced he also NPD, this Coupled with pathological gambling & my own experience living in fear daily in the end for over (detail removed by Moderator) years of him, his sudden verbal attacks His vile controlling on every level there is of Domestic violence/abuse has left me a mere shell of who I used to be, I still live in fear to say or do anything in life for fear of being Scolded.

    • #40006
      Serenity
      Participant

      Hi Her Indoors,

      I’m so glad that you read it. It’s a short book, but it is stuffed with such good and practical advice.

      Reading it triggered a lightbulb moment for me: setting clear boundaries which serve to protect our well-being and our reflect our cherished values really must be our priority! Truly and properly owning this belief is potentially life-changing. If we can become good at setting boundaries, we can taste more of the joys of life and not live in such fear. I know that I, for one, have always been poor at setting boundaries and have left myself vulnerable to abuse as a result.

      So glad you are in a stronger place x

    • #40011
      Ayanna
      Participant

      Men use mental illness as an excuse for abuse when they have to go to court, because this helps them escape any punishment.
      Abusers know how to play the system.
      They are masters of manipulation.
      Patriarchy always sides with abusive men and happily grabs the straw of mental health issues to help them out and let them run free to continue with more abuse.

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