7th April 2019 at 11:44 am #75557
ive recently read when dad hurts mum by the good mr bancroft and wow what a revalation! this book is exactly how this has played out for us;
heres something that rings very true in many cases;
-persuading the children that you are to blame for the separation.
-having the children transmit messages to you.
-pumping them for information about your current living situation,your finances,or your new partners.
-returning them dirty,unfed,or emotionally distraught from visits.
-frequently buying them presents or taking them on exspensive outings,to buy their affection and loyalty.
-turning the children against you through verbal conditioning and manipulation.
-undermining your parenting by making his home a place with no rules,structure,or safety precautions.
-having specail toys or pets at his house that they cannot bring home, so they have to go to his house to enjoy them.
-making the children feel sorry for him about the separation,such as telling them he crys when theyre not there,so they will feel obligated to spend more time with him.
-taking them for visits and returning them late,or not returning them at all for days or even weeks.
-not calling them or spending time with them at all, especially if he is angry at you about something.
-not paying child support,underpaying,or paying late.
-causing you and the children to become homeless by not contributing financially,by getting you evicted, or by forcing the sale of your home.
-threatening all kinds of harm if you let your children to get to know your new partner.
-destroying their relationships with therapist or other proffesionals through manipulation.
-dragging you into court repeatedly regarding visitation.
seeking custody of the children through court or threatening to do so.
-kidnapping the children or threatening to do so.
-abusing the children through visitation, especially when he is angry at you.
-filing unwaranted child abuse reports.
-promising to see the children then cancelling at the last minite,in an effort to control your schedule/free time.
i could tick most of these examples, its helpful to see this in black and white- its liberating to see this is a pattern of behavior that is inherent – i can feel the blame shifting of my shoulders in to thin air right now! love diymum xxxx
7th April 2019 at 12:07 pm #75559KIP.Participant
Hi, it’s shocking to see that list. My son was technically an adult when his dad was arrested. Just wanted to add that my ex used lots of the tactics on that list, even though our son was grown, he was still vulnerable to his dad. I can only imagine how little children suffer because of this behaviour, how it affects their whole life achievements. There’s so much evidence now about how the trauma suffered in early life will come back to haunt us later in life, very often triggered by another traumatic event. They Psychological damage is dreadful to all involved. The sooner the courts recognise this behaviour and act upon it the better. I think with the new coercive control laws, using children should become more obvious for judges as they are all getting trained on coercive control. Let’s see.
7th April 2019 at 1:46 pm #75563
this is the hidden side of domestic abuse isnt it, no one ever discusses this subject really – once men cant get to us they use the worst form of all – they use our children and turn them against us @its called identifying with the agressor’
this is because – he wants power, control and vengeance.he believes his distortions about you and him.he sees children as owned objects.he has contempt for women in general and he blames you for the effects he has had on you.
i do hope the courts start to see this dynamic- its subtle but also has a consistent pattern. i hope people can see these warning signs and take note. with a certain type of abuse man ie men who use kids as weapons – there really has to be only supervised or no contact granted other wise we risk loosing them xx luv diy mum
7th April 2019 at 2:14 pm #75565
OMG yes, yes, yes, I could tick most of these. I nearly didn’t read your post DM, as I felt pain as soon as I read the heading. Knew I’d be a fool not to though, so glad I did, this is so helpful to me.
I have a diary, and all these things are in there time and time again. I have this book, but it is way too big for me to read. I’ve been reading the other one as you know, on my kindle atm; since I had the breakdown, I have experienced a severe lack of concentration when reading, I seem to only be able to manage a couple of pages at a time. It’s frustrating but something I’ve learnt to live with. I used to read academic books and journals thick in jargon, I cant seem to grasp what is being said in anything dense nowadays. When I was firing on all cylinders and well oiled, my dyslexia seemed miniscule, now it seems to be prevalant.
What page is this on? I’m going to photocopy it for my evidence file, will help me when pulling out exactly what I need from the diary.
Thanks hunny x*x
7th April 2019 at 2:26 pm #75566KIP.Participant
Hi fizzylem, just wanted to say that I too used to be an avid reader and that my PTSD prevents me from taking in information in the written form. Some days I can do audio podcasts and such like but I think the lack of concentration is very common among survivors. Some days I cannot get past one paragraph. Long reports or long letters are impossible. Hang in there and keep taking baby steps. Hopefully our brain power will return one day with lots of tender loving self care x
7th April 2019 at 2:28 pm #75567
One thing I’m concerned about, is the point you have raised ‘he blames you for the effects he has had on you’. He has laughed in the past when Ive said you need to back off, the stressed you have caused me is making me ill. This is me blaming him – and I do!
I’m worried about this, I blame him too, in my eyes, it is his behaviour that has lead us to no contact; I wouldnt have a problem with him at all if he parented our child properly. I know he will argue it is me being controlling, because when all is said and done, I do have to cut him out and manage trying to keep my daughter’s contact to the minimum – which is taking the control off him, but this is also precieved as controlling, I wish I didnt have to do it, but sometimes there is no other option.
I can imagine that’s why the judge is not concerned with what he said she said, as they’re not hey, so they ask the child what he/she wants and focus more on this, but the child is being manipluated and emotionally damaged when in his care, it also prevent me from being the best mum I can be to her as I try to manage things for her – its no way to live; ontop of him now using the court system and his PR for sole purpose to abuse me with.
How do we avoid not blaming him when it is his actions and the impact of these on us that have got us here?
7th April 2019 at 2:41 pm #75569
Thanks KIP; it’s a mad symtom indeed isn’t it, it effects my speech too – it is because of this that I am so fearful of court, fearful I won’t be able to articulate myself in the way my child needs me to, especially when it needs someone familiar in abuse to undertsand what it is I am saying really – it’s complex.
The list DM’s put up above – its ongoing, subtle but insidious, I really do feel like my daughter would be better off not spending time with him, that it would be much better for her if we both cut contact, but the current law says otherwise, the powerlessness I feel and the inability to ever really fully recover is because it is ongoing, I feel I cant protect her from her father all the time, its a constant challenge, something I always have to be mindful of and manage – something that is instinctual in a mother. Its like watching a car crash, I try to deal with it with the view that we will overcome, it will make her stronger, everythng he does we can use for growth; but there are a hell of a lot of days when the reality is more it has/is damaging her; her anger, her lack of care for herself and others, she never seems happy and seems to accept this is just how it is, she says no to most things because she has little confidence, she struggles so much to please her father, she’s taking care of him! He sends her so many wrong messages and teaches such hideous lessons. Its heartbreaking, I really dont know what else I can do. What I need to do is get away from him, so I can build strength and be a better parent to her myself. Tears xx
7th April 2019 at 2:55 pm #75572
Its like she has one half of a parent in me with him our lives, when what she needs is one whole parent which can only be achived if we are both protected in law from him – but I have no faith this will happen as unless he is physically or sexually abusing her, sh!t dad’s still have rights to access hey.
7th April 2019 at 5:32 pm #75585
p 214 of when dad hurts mum – its kind of my aim to pass on what im learning. the only reason im thinking in a sharp way is because im taking anti- depressants. my thinking is very clear but i know myself im cheating really. i need to know the dymamics of this with the hope that i can sort this. i hope this for all of you who are going through this. its breaking my heart reading this book but god its my life in words honestly wish someone had warned me x*x love diy mum
7th April 2019 at 5:40 pm #75586
fizzy dont blame your self for blaming him – this is his doing 100 % he is the only one to blame love diymum x*x
7th April 2019 at 6:04 pm #75587
these are the predictors as to whether he will turn them against you-
has he hit the children or been scarey to them?
does he disrespect their boundaries?
has he tried to turn them against me or keep them apart from me?
does he undermine my authority?
is he sometimes cruel to them?
does he profoundly neglect there needs and feelings?
does he manipulate them, such as showering them with gifts or positive attention when he is angry with me?
the thing is the children can recover from this with less exposure to these men. they can make a full recovery according to this book so that is the up side to this side of things – we have to ask the courts to listen and make appropriate contact orders – it is the the best interest of the children that is upheld on paper in the court laws x*x its our childrens right to have a good role model in there life to guide and support them xx
7th April 2019 at 11:50 pm #75616
Yes can say 6 out of the 7 on this list too. I think I need to have a chat with my solictor again, and grow some bigger balls. I need to step in for her dont I, I need to hand it all over to the court to decide how best to proceed, and I will have to accept whatever that outcome is. Last time I spoke to my solicitor he didnt seem to get me, I need to try again, I need to say this is what I need, how can we proceed, he seemed to respond to me as if we would be dealing with a resonable father, that this was all about the child, when I was saying I feel I need protection too, it was as if that time has now passed?!? Well I cant go on with it like this. I really do have bags of evidence now, too mcuh really to sort through.
I’m going to start with p214, cheers DM. It’s like I’ve only got room for health atm, you know, one thing at a time, I also neeeed to try and make some money, I’m flat broke, but I do know I need to start wising up and getting ready for court – as this is my chance to show them the lair he is and make it stop for the both of us hey xx
8th April 2019 at 8:50 am #75626
you maybe need to change your lawyer fizzy i did and i got a lovely woman – she was amazing with me totally got it – i had four different lawyers xx
i think if shes having these difficulties you know yourself no contact is best xx love diymum
8th April 2019 at 8:59 am #75628maddogParticipant
Check, check, check…. Yes my ex does so many of the things on that list. (detail removed by Moderator) On and on it goes and my ex makes less and less sense. I need to go through loads of paperwork and find the inconsistencies. Abusers turn into rageballs against whoever they can. I know my ex doesn’t care about the children.
8th April 2019 at 9:23 am #75630
i know were no really supposed to talk about this so if this is deleted that ok – nut when i spoke to the independent lawyer (detail removed by Moderator) – i said to he in all due respect you are way above me in your knowledge but did you you know xyandz about the dynamics of domestic abuse – i showed her my examples from my journals and linked it to the evidence i had like papers from the safe no sorry document by womens aid – i was actually lucky that she listened – the courts can pull through but its a gamble i suppose – at thetime i fel like i had no alternative otherwise i was going to loos another child to him xx god we never think for a minite when theyre born that we’ll go through this especially when we give our heart and soul into bringing the up xx i suppose what they tear down we can build back up? x*x luv diymum
8th April 2019 at 9:50 am #75631
this s what the court evaluators are unaware off;
-the well-established profile of abusive men,and the fact that these characteristics can have profound implications on their children.
-the wide spread tendancy among abusive men to undermine the mothers authority and daamage her relationship with her children.
-the extremely low rate of change in abusive men except among those who participate for an extended period of time in a specialised group for abusers in combination with criminal prosecution.
-the fact that abusive men have far higher rates for abusing children than other men do.
-the fact that being a target of chronic abuse can leave a woman in many emotional difficulties – and sometimes physical ones as well – from which she may need to heal.
-the tendancy of abusive men to abruptly start paying focused attention to their children when they decide to seek custody,and the powerful emotional impact this positive attention can have on children who have been traumatised by the mans abusiveness,and who simultaneously are starved for his approval.
-the fact that abusive men usually present themselves as likeable, calm,reasonable people in court,do not seem in any way to be abusive,and often play the role of hurt and misunderstood victim.
-the fact that abusive men are unhealthy role models, and that their children grow up with high rates of involvelment in domestic abuse themselves,and in other kinds of aggressive or anti-social behaviour.(for some reason even a man who is physically violent to his partner is not considered a bad role model by most family courts,where as a drug dealer would be,even though abusers do at least as much damage in society,including causing a similar amount of deaths annually)
-the tendancy of many abusive men to sabotage childrens recovery, such as ruining there relationships with therapists.
-the fact that, for these reasons above,unsupervised or unwanted contact with their woman abusing fathers impedes childrens recovery.
its eye opening reading x*x love diy mum
5th June 2019 at 8:26 pm #80025
i think this is helpful when we look at child contact xx
5th June 2019 at 9:37 pm #80035
Completely! All so very true. It’s really sad isn’t that none of this is recognised. It really angers me that a woman can be violently attacked and he still has a right to see his children.
Fact, the mother is a single parent, this is a hard enough job even when she is firing on all cyclinders! If she suffers her children also suffer as she simply can not be the best mum she can be x
5th June 2019 at 9:39 pm #80037
I’m going to go for alienation – I know it is really hard to prove but I’m pretty sure I can x
5th June 2019 at 9:48 pm #80039
i would too – i know you can do this xxxx
5th June 2019 at 9:49 pm #80040
and it is alienation that is happening to you guys xxxx i was the same
27th June 2019 at 10:50 am #81779
hi yellow flower – I wanted to send you this to show you what can happen . I know this is really hard because all we want is a father for our children and to be loved and respected xxxx this is what can happen and does mostly in the majority of cases not to be negative but its true unfortunately xxxx much love diymum
3rd January 2020 at 3:47 pm #94816
here is a helpful thread xx
3rd January 2020 at 3:49 pm #94817
it has to be said abusive fathers accusing mothers of alienation is clear projection on their part. abusive men are known to damage the relationship between mother and child its divide and rule again xx
4th February 2020 at 9:17 pm #97104
4th February 2020 at 10:27 pm #97111Anonymous
Yea reading this I can definitely see he is using my son as a weapon now a little part of me wasn’t sure if i was makin a mountain out of a mole hill but it’s right seing this behaviour wrote down in black and while is definitely identifiable that he is using my son.
4th February 2020 at 10:30 pm #97112
Get yourself clued up on it all xx I stopped contact on the basis of emotional abuse. He might be playing father of the year right now but abusive men can’t contain there behaviours xx
4th February 2020 at 10:36 pm #97113
You will have to put boundaries down with him and this is your right ur resident parent remember xx you have more say. Being a permissive parent is not being a good parent he’s not doing what he should be doing xx cafcass have a document on this and they recognise it – you know it’s hard because u don’t want to look the bad one here but maybe the solicitor could write out to ask for set bed times? Limited treats and expensive things as your trying to bring up grounded kids? He won’t like it but as long as you explain to your child that having limits is actually good for them I remember being about 6 and having an understanding that getting everything I wanted wasn’t good for me xx I’m might have huffed abit but I knew xx and I respected the ones who guided me right xx
5th February 2020 at 10:07 am #97129
Oh my this is worrying and eye opening at the same time. The abuser in my life already shows so much of these traits I feel like I need to smarten up and get one step ahead of him. I’m going to document everything, and pair it with this list to build my case against him.
Do they actually know that they are doing this? Or is it mindless behaviour? He seems like he loves and dotes on his children but now that I am pulling away and he can’t control me anymore he has started using these tactics. I think it’s awful what he is doing to our poor children, they should be protected from harm under our care not used as an emotional punch bag.
5th February 2020 at 10:33 am #97131
One step ahead is always a good plan xx they do know what they’re doing this is about winning for them. I realised that theses men always come first on my last day in court. I had screeds of evidence showing verbal and emotional abuse plus through me and infront of my child xx infront of many professionals he was still adamant this was not true he was not abusive xx although the evidence more than confirmed this for all to see xx the court stopped the contact x
5th February 2020 at 10:39 am #97133
@DIYmum, when you say evidence, was it written accounts of every time he had been abusive? Or was it recordings, videos, text messages ect?
Just trying to gather what I can. He got into my phe some time ago and erased all my messages he had sent me so I had to start from square one. He now deletes messages as soon as he sends them so I can’t save them… But I will start to document all interactions with him from now on if it is classed as evidence.
5th February 2020 at 11:02 am #97135
I had a diary off how she was before and after contact. Gp spoke to us both and wrote to court, I got womens aid to support her but she wouldn’t talk but they wrote saying they were involved. They were lovely xx I got a private therapist for her too and she wrote for court. I also new a social worker and she sat with my girl to write down what she felt XX she was having panic and anxiety x
5th February 2020 at 11:03 am #97136
I got friends who witnessed his behaviour toward me infront I’d her to write accounts xx
5th February 2020 at 11:21 am #97137
Thank you, I’ll make sure people close to me can do that too, unfortunately he’s a clever man and veils what he is truly like, his family see a bit but they would never do that to him.
5th February 2020 at 11:56 am #97144
If the kids are affected by his behaviour then that will be enough xx
6th February 2020 at 1:09 am #97200RubyslippersParticipant
Hard reading all this, and truly feel for you all, but sadly this is why I have come on here tonight as at the end of my tether, and think I’m starting to lose it.
fizzylem it is like I wrote your post for you. Its scary. I left my ex (detail removed by moderator) years ago and it feels worse now than it did when we were together because of him using our daughter as a tool, so he can still try to control me. I could protect her when I lived with him. I can’t do that now and feel completely helpless at times. He does most on the first list (when dad hurts mum), and DD can see what he is doing as is old enough to understand, and has told me she knows he uses her, but still wishes to see him even though she knows its having an affect on her mental wellbeing. I too am at a loss like you all.I’m told its my decision whether to stop contact, (he tried to file (detail removed by moderator) concerns against me last year that were both dropped by SS) but if I stop contact it will cause issues again for my daughter, as she stopped seeing him for a while (her choice, even though he blamed me, even after she told him her reasons) she couldn’t cope with no contact, as she craved the manipulative attention he gives her, that he didn’t give her when we were together (I get the blame for this for “controlling” any family time we used to have, which was very minimal as he always had work to do) and she felt guilty for choosing not to see him, which affected her more than no contact.
stuck between a rock and a hard place, d****d if I do, d****d if I don’t. im sure you will all relate to this for those who are in this situation. he reduced his maintenance to next to nothing to try to cause financial difficulties for me, as knows I will continue to pay for all her activities if I possibly can, so she doesn’t suffer further.
I have files of evidence, texts, video clipS of conversations and (detail removed by moderator) police reports since leaving, but he is still allowed to continue with his psychological abuse. My divorce solicitor was aware and sent him letters, but this made no difference.
Due to the costs I incurred when dealing with the financial settlement (as he failed to show for several hearings at my cost) I have no money to pay for more legal fees to take him to court for a contact order, so feel powerless in trying to stop the abuse.
I have dipped in and out on here over the past few years to receive, and give (I hope) invaluable support and advice. this forum is a source of strength and hope. Just sorry I have no answers to help others too. Xx
7th February 2020 at 4:24 pm #97280mom1Participant
I am so sorry for what you are going through. I feel my situation is backwards. MY emotionally abusive husband left me and now our elementary school daughter doesnt want to see him. she said he left the family so he isnt my parent anymore. I try to tell her he left me not her but she said I dont have a dad anymore. He is nice to her, just bad to me.
26th June 2020 at 11:08 pm #107690
This might help re understanding how child contact is used to further abuse the mother xx
26th June 2020 at 11:22 pm #107698LostmonkeyParticipant
This is the point I am at now – with social services input managed to get him to agree to leave – apparently he thought it would just be short term – it won’t be – but he really manipulative. He has already been told by them not to come to pick up – if they want to see him I have to drop them to him as if one did not want to see him he would manipulate etc – the thing that got me to tell someone was he spilled over to abusing them in front of me… and now I see the bits and ways he is manipulating them and still getting to me. – I have taken a long time to feel I am not wasting someone’s time asking for help but at the moment I know I need something. The list is good because is validates all those niggling thoughts about things not being right. When they have constantly told you and told your kids how stupid you are, that you don’t remember things right etc etc – it is good to not feel you are going a bit mad or imagining things – that it is a recognised thing
26th June 2020 at 11:30 pm #107702
No this is very common xx a few women on here here have fought for their kids and got what they needed – got the kids away xx it’s the right thing to do but it does take time and lots of work xx
27th June 2020 at 5:22 am #107727iliketeaParticipant
Thank you for this post and discussion, so helpful. Xx
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