- This topic has 100 replies, 38 voices, and was last updated 8 months, 1 week ago by
.
-
Posts
-
-
I’ve been thinking about this all day. This post isn’t thought out very well but I want to go to bed, my heart is racing, I’m feeling exhausted, another day of crazy b******* – I want to switch off. I’ve read a lot of the new posts today, and I always read the Getting Out posts too, because I’m there, on the doormat (literally and figuratively), ready to go…BUT im also waiting, I’m waiting for something to happen to make me go “Right, that’s it!” “THE RED LINE HAS BEEN CROSSED”.. BAM!!! <—thats the door slamming!
From reading today, I’m realising that we all have different red lines….I’m feeling down on myself because my tolerance seems to be really low compared to a lot of women. I’m beating myself up because he hasn’t hit me (yet). Instead its emotional, psychological, coercive control abuse…and I don’t want to hang around anymore, its messing with my head and my mental health and my children’s and I don’t want to ever see this man again, he feels like a stranger to the one I first met, and I definitely don’t love him. I feel like I’m living with a psychopath but I’m not sure he’s really that bad compared to some of you amazing women’s perpetrators…
That’s a weird contradiction isn’t it?
So, I’m waiting for something to happen, I’m waiting for it to get worse…I might subconsciously be waiting for him to hit me which will give me the permission to leave..But what is that about? Is that permission from society? Is that patriarchy? What is it? I’m not scared of being alone. I have loads of experience of that. I’m not scared of single parenting. I pretty much do that now anyway, and come from a single parent family.
That’s as far as my brain is going with this tonight.
So what I’m trying to say, that’s my red line. What’s yours?
Is it worth having a conversation about this? Why are they all so different? And does it matter?
Night.x -
@iliketea – My red line moment, or as I call it, my own personal boundary of what was acceptable, was always going to be the first time he left a mark on me. We’d been together for a very long time before that happened, and it all came together on the one night. He grabbed me round the throat, lifted me up off the floor, threw me to the floor causing bruising to my arm, then pulled some of my hair out. My son woke up to my screams and he was only a toddler and he started screaming out “mummy, mummy”. That was my boundary totally smashed down. That was the moment of no going back. That was the start of my FLIGHT to RECOVERY with refuge being not long after that.
-
-
Oh my, you had to go and do this, didn’t you? My squirrels up in the attic are going bonkers over this one. Throwing nuts at each other, turning over furniture, locking the door on me, Arrrghhh! Even stopped up the toilet. Sooo, gears are turning…. smoke out my ears. I love it when you guys really show how very bright you are because you are bright. No one asks questions like most of you do that isn’t. One thing to know for sure is that people who are abusive – don’t ask questions like this. They don’t examine their navel at all. Don’t look in the mirror except to admire themselves. I have asked the question Am I crazy before and got the answer……..Crazy people don’t ask that question.
Excellent post here! Love it! And hopefully we will get a myriad of answers because it’s not one size fits all. But I definitely think it’s one that has to be answered and put up on the wall to be seen and examined. Can’t examine something as crucial as this if we keep it hidden, right? Sleep well my pretty, sleep well, you’ve been a very busy girl today. Hugs!
-
-
You both are incredible. I agree; the intelligence of people on here..wow. This is what abusers target. People who try so hard to justify the abuse and to at least try to see every angle before judging. There is a pattern here lovelies…..
-
-
That red line keeps moving. You should ask yourself when was the red line first crossed. I bet it was a long time ago x
-
Really good question KIP, and you’re so right, it should have been the first time he punched a hole in a wall…or didn’t pay a bill…or told me I was a bad driver…or “borrowed” money that never got returned….or lied and got found out…or didn’t comfort me when something serious happened…so many red lines.xx
-
-
My red line was comprised of many things – I just had too much evidence of who they really were vs who I thought they were or more importantly wanted/needed them to be. Add being in too much pain and it affecting my child when she was in the picture. Having an abusive father was involved in some ways. If I would see the man in my life using similar tactics and having the same M.O., I was done. Education and information played a huge role, too, plus just having nothing come my way but misery.
-
My red line has moved many
Time’s over the years but I never find the courage to leave. I started anti depressants (detail removed by moderator) in the hope it would numb down my confusion and yet here I am. I wish I was strong-
My GP put me on them at the start of lockdown as I had been resisting them but I was in a really bad fog, and she insisted it would help me through the stress that was coming. She was 100% right I’m much much clearer in my thinking. It took about 4 weeks for them to work. Could you try and change them, or lower the dose? I thought it would have that effect of numbness too, but was really surprised it just helped and stopped the confusion. Partly because I get at least 6 hours straight a night and none of that crazy 4am waking and worrying thing. Might be worth a try. I’ve resisted them all my life because I thought they turned you into a zombie. They really don’t have to. xx
-
-
I have no idea what my line is. I used to think he would hit me but our kids are grown up now and would certainly raise hell if he did so I don’t worry about that anymore.
At the moment I just feel dead and numb. The stomach churning anxiety is always present but I don’t think I have a line anymore. -
-
I’ve asked this question to myself so many times, wondering if I should wait for something “worse” to happen before making the decision. The worse came and still I didn’t go. It’s true that everyone’s boundaries are different BUT what your describing is clear enough that you need to go. Why wait for something to justify to yourself that it’s ok to look after yourself and children.
A very lovely social worker once said to me.. “he’s had an affair/been disloyal, his attacked you physically many times, he’s raped you, his disregard for you total being is clear to see, and still you stay. What is it going to have to happen to realise you deserve better!?” I always go over and over this in my head.
Your red line is already behind you, not in front. The whole floor is painted red!!! You need to leave and please don’t wait for that permission moment. Your already there!
You deserve better
You are worth it
You matter -
-
My red line moves constantly despite me saying to myself enough is enough. It happens again and I dumb it down in my head, wasn’t that bad was it? Been through worse. Maybe it was my fault…if I hadn’t done that…I’ll try harder next time…Sadly just becomes normal in the end.
-
-
I think its partly self-preservation, our logical rational brains can’t believe its actually happening, thats for me anyway. My IDVA told me I’m the longest case she’s had, I just didn’t believe it was abuse (its emotional/psychological) and there are all sorts of reasons for that, mostly upbringing and what you’re used to, and I have a lot of resilience, putting up and getting on with things, but its worked against me here!
-
-
I ended up dispensing with a red line altogether, and I think we were in very similar positions @iliketea. What I did is a picked a date a few months in the future when I knew I didnt have to work for a couple of weeks and I could take care of the children on my own, and then when that date came I just left like it was a holiday I’d booked.. didnt want to lose my investment!! I think there is a danger with red lines as was discussed above, they will keep on moving without you ever even realising. It’s easy to say you would leave if it ever became physical, but that might start out small and you might brush it under the carpet, thinking “well that didnt really count”. It sounds to me like you’re already at the point of leaving, and maybe it’s just about taking the plunge and not letting him be in control of that moment too. Lots of love x*x
-
@Balloons, yes, I’m veering to that way of doing it, when I read that it really made me feel comfortable, like yes, that is the way I should do it, stop the waiting for the moment and run scenario which is going to be really hard anyway. And I guess he has been physical in a way anyway, I just minimise it, he pushes and shoves and I’m always in the way..and has thrown things at me but a while ago now…but I do think it was a threat..because I’m always wondering if he’s going to blow and do something.
-
-
I’m going to sound like the weak one here but I can only be honest. I do admire these women who drew the line and acted. I never did no matter what he did I begged him not to leave that’s how vulnerable I felt. I know now what I was feeling was not rational. I think this is a very important topic because this is why women are murdered due to dv x something else no one wants to think or talk about but it’s real. He left me once I was freed I then stood back and saw it clearly. I new I didn’t actually need him. I’d only we could see when were so deep in the mess they create ? Disrespecting us is enough reason to leave any situation. But we know it’s not that clear cut 💕😘
-
Yes, I agree, its weird that all we go through and there are still taboos for us on this topic, well from society I suppose, how we’ve been conditioned to act in a certain way. Its not weak its brainwashing, its conditioning, its abuse which wears you down so badly. But you got out whatever way it happened! You’re strong! You did it! xx
-
These posts are great. The Red Line, wow, never looked at it this way before. Yes, my whole floor is RED. Having read these posts I think I have just moved the red line again in front of me, saying next time that will be it. But he does something again and I just sit there and keep the peace. My partner is controlling. He doesn’t think he is. I also get the evil face shouty face. Its awful. Sometimes shouted at for hours it’s exhausting. Thats just for being friendly with the neighbours. Its ridiculous. Reading these posts is really helpful 🧡
-
-
Iliketea
I like your post, as in they are interesting points to raise but it was admittedly an uncomfortable read.
Braelynn made me laugh out loud with the squirrels, yep this one definitely made me sit up.I lived for years before leaving, through some of the most important years of my children’s lives.
The red line was years before I left, the old me would have got up and gone there and then but…
Well, without even knowing it, I was already in deep by that point.
It’s all very complicated (it is for all of us,+ for many different reasons) and I’m not quite there with sharing fully just now, I’m still processing a lot of it.
By the time I left, I was…on the floor but not through constant physical abuse. I can’t think how to describe on the floor to you, like the lowest of the low. Like dying would have been a welcome release, I do not say that publicly lightly but that was the reality.
There was something/things that happened that brought things to a head but…(I’m not ready to share)Joining this space and starting to share, if I thought for one moment that any woman might look at my experiences and think- I can’t leave because I don’t compare to that.
I’d get it, they do get you so confused, questioning everything, feeling so very low and worthless but my intention of anything that I share, having got out, would only ever be to support and encourage women to leave/end abusive and unhealthy relationships.
To focus on their own safety and well-being and that of their children’s.We all have different experiences to share. We all have skills and strengths to offer to the cause. There is so much to strive for.
‘Until women & children are safe’
The women on here who have sought out this site, signed up and started sharing on here. They are brave and clever- that’s you by the way Iliketea. Building a support network before they’ve left, reading up- knowledge is power, getting supportive, professional advice and working out the options and next steps. That takes courage when you’re in the thick of it and it’s a really smart move.
I didn’t do that, I was in a position that I knew very well about the site and the support out there but I didn’t have the courage, couldn’t admit it to myself.
I’ve a huge amount of respect to all women taking those steps, researching and making a plan, asking questions.Ultimately, in the short time that I’ve been on the forum, it has helped me to see how far I have travelled- that there’s no going back. Not that I’d ever go back there but I’m heading onward and upwards and whatever is thrown at me, I’m going to make sure I survive and thrive.
There is hope that there is strength in numbers, in that, yes the numbers are awful but there’s power in numbers too.
So basically, the more people we can support to safety, the stronger we become and the emphasis for me would always be to encourage people to get to safety as soon as possible.
Hopefully before abuse escalates, or is repeated.From there, it is supporting each other in our recovery because it is a roller-coaster but I am also interested in how survivors, once feeling at a good place in their recovery, can become voices for change. There is much work to do on that front, on so many levels. Never-mind supporting perpetrators to recover (bit late)- how about protecting mothers and children properly first so that the cycle doesn’t continue…and don’t tell me that there isn’t a cycle, that it isn’t passed down. Biggest load of distracting Piffle-supporting perpetrators indeed, as if that should take any such priority. Prevention not cure.
Soulsearcher18
-
@Soulsearcher18 thank you for your thoughtful reply, really sorry if it was a challenging question to post, I think I was a bit tired and perhaps not thinking it through and what triggers it might have for people. Thank you for replying and yes you are totally right. Strength in numbers and it does feel like that with this forum. There are a lot of women here, over 6k active users yesterday, and yes you are right, its 100% about safety before the abuse escalates, and that’s why it is such an amazing forum to be able to discuss, learn from each other, ask questions from the reluctant experts that we all are – thanks so much for saying what I was trying to…so much better.
I think my thought process was going further too but I was so tired and foggy that I couldn’t articulate it. What I think for my situation is that it’s not that I’m expecting something worse for the permission to leave but in my mind it feels as if society is. I was told by the policewoman I spoke to that it would be so much easier and straightforward if there was something to photograph. That in CC relationships which she had no doubt this was, the evidence was harder to stick. A week later the solicitor said the same, she apologised afterwards but she still did say it. So now I’m sitting here thinking, I want to go but what happens if the court doesn’t see it that way and then its out in the open for him, his abuse then escalates as he’s vindicated and then there’s a child custody battle. I don’t understand why the system is so unfair. Or maybe it isn’t and Im just picking up on those stories.
And yes, yes, yes, I think that’s another reason why this forum works so well, because there are advocates on here, who have been through it, and are supporting us and are the voices of change. Thank you @soulsearcher18 you chose a good name there.
-
-
What a beautiful, soulful post, Soulsearcher! Too true, every word. Glad I made you laugh! Hey, we have to laugh right? Is important. We are a living breathing organism here, aren’t we? Much activity, change in motion even if only reading and thinking… I so know there are those at the back of the room listening. Silent for now but very attentive. Sometimes all you can do is observe, read, hide in the shadows. But watch out, you in the back there…. truth will get under your skin. Highly contagious! Sooo if you start to feel a little fire burning inside you, don’t stomp it out, it’s a good thing!
-
Absolutely Braelynn- I’m sure there are plenty in the back reading and taking it all in, or just some of it at a time. Great. That’s a start. That’s a step further each time they join and read.
It can be really, really difficult to actually pick up the phone to speak, fill in the form to sign up, type down the words and post but reading up is a great start- forewarned as they say.Iliketea, not uncomfortable in a bad way- I think this forum is a good space to just write openly and get people thinking and sharing. I find it quite refreshing as in all other areas you have to be on your guard a bit in case people don’t get it, or your thoughts and experiences don’t quite fit their party lines.
I guess once you leave a situation, when you read of women who are experiencing abuse, you just want so bad for them to see it can be different and to help. It can be easy to forget all the anguish that you yourself actually experienced before leaving- perhaps it is easier to focus on how things are better now and encouraging others to take the leap, instead of reflecting on that time because it was messy and painful and there is regret (as in why didn’t I do it sooner, how did it happen to me…so many questions).Iliketea, the systems are messy, frustrating and not fit for purpose- I’m not going to lie. That’s all the systems by the way. All I can say to you is, yes there are things I would do differently in terms of gathering evidence. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. How realistic that would have been given the nature of the type of abuse- you’re heads messy. They are the puppeteer holding all the strings and running the show, so how you get above that when they’ve already brought you to your knees and to the floor. I’m just not sure how realistic that is?
I mean it is too much to expect a victim to gather evidence. If police could put cameras in to record and stuff, maybe? but I’m pretty much guessing that would go above and beyond anything they’d actually do.
From what you say, you’ve got professional advice that what you are experiencing is coercive control-from the police too.Society…society tells us to be a good little wifey and stay in our place doesn’t it? That’s what keeps so many of us in for so long I think. Society is …need to use a harsh expletive…not going too…Society needs turning upside down and shaking up.
I wouldn’t advise any victim to wait for society’s approval. Right now there is a spotlight on DV due to the increase in numbers with lockdown and it’s going to be interesting to see how They wriggle out of excusing this significant increase. I’d advise women to trust their gut, think of the safety and well-being of themselves and their children, get out of the relationship whilst they can, build a strong network- sign up to all the professional and voluntary support available on all levels and make the support work for you. Go zero/as minimal as possible contact with perpetrator.
If you’ve found yourself in this position, it is likely that you have a sincere quality about you, that you’re someone who is caring and wants to help. Once you realise how much these qualities have been exploited and how much hurt that has caused, it is likely that you will always want to be a part of trying to prevent that kind of awfulness from affecting others. Your experiences will inform change and it’s likely that you will join to work for that change to happen in some way but staying put and waiting for that change to happen…if I had done that, then my children would never have known anything different.
I wish that the systems were different and changed already, they’re not but I still wouldn’t stay. I have no regrets, only that I stayed as long as I did. Whatever the outcome, I can look my children in the eyes and tell them that I’m sorry, I made mistakes but that in the end, I stood up for them and I fought for them. For their childhood and for their recovery.
If they should come to any further harm because of the ineptitude of the current systems, there are many who will be accountable and I will be the first to hold them to it. But, I have shone a spotlight on that absolute …wolf in sheep’s clothing, a big burning spotlight and have no fear, I’ll not let it fade. Ever.
Time and Karma.Sorry, bit forthright but again a subject that gets me going- society and the systems!
In solidarity Sister- always
Soulsearcher18 -
Iliketea, he’s already left marks on you, you can’t see them because they are not on the outside. The worst scars I have are from the psychological abuse. Trust me, coercive control was what damaged me the most. if you have physical damage, the body will heal itself. If you have metal damage, it’s a whole different ball game. xx
-
-
-
-
The law is in place but the process isnt, the usual split for victims. Unless you have n actual live feed of him beating you up then sorry love we cant help (and even the best physical evidence is twisted and diminished). Iliketea you are tired. I suspect with the lovely medication that your brain n has put its feet up by the pool for as few days to think about things rather than being in a state of panic 24/7. The post you have put up here shows that.. you are processing your thoughts with clarity and building your argument. I know this because the same thing happened to me when I started on anti depression meds. I wasn’t depressed I was s**t scared , in a state of trauma 24/7 and the tablets helped to suspend that and my thoughts slowed down, and my heart and soul and body, so I could build up to leaving with clarity and certainty. Its like spraning your ankle or breaking a leg- you might not feel it at the time, then the pain kicks in and the tablets kill the pain and help you think about how to get out.
the mental damage is far far worse than a leg break. he does not have to hit you. there is already neurological damage. The needs for the medication is already proof of that. I realised my floor was painted red all over and hot as hell when I fell and shattered limbs and lots of other things, and he discarded me like a piece of rubbish. It was when I saw the horrified reaction of NHS staff to him that I knew something was wrong with my ability to feel for myself, and recognise danger. Well here I am free but still on the tabs, playing “I will survive’ REALLY loud and confusing the pets by dancing and they are so unused to seeing me so happy. Listen to what your thoughts are telling you. Your rational mind is now trying to tell you that you KNOW you do not need to be physically hit. A lot more abusers are getting clued up, like mine did, and using non physical forms of abuse very effectively, and consciously. XXXXX keep posting xxxx-
@Cecile, so so true, thank you for writing this and explaining it. Keep dancing!! xx
-
-
So helpful….very grateful for your initial post and all the great replies.. THANK YOU ALL xxxx
Just as im get really really stupidly close to somehow leaving… tenancy drafted, awaiting date and feeling so sick thinking HOW im going to do this still with a little one too…
Terrified, overthinking…..need all the help, adviceThank you thank you thank you x*x
-
Im at the same stage, we need to get our thinking hats on as to literally how to do this practically. I think we also need to take the advice about not telling. Not a word. As much as it goes against our own reasonable thinking as decent human beings who know wrong from right to just walk, we have to. The reason? Because we are not dealing with people who think how other people think. And it is not safe. I am 100% coming round to the fact that I do not know this person. Therefore I am living with a stranger. Therefore I do not know 100% how this person will react in this type of situation. This is very serious. Much much better to just walk away quietly and safely. At the end of the day I think we need to think of all people as wild animals at heart – how do wild animals behave when their property is taken away from them?
-
THE RED LINE?
A really thought provoking post.
I haven’t read all the replies but some.
My red line? Well, I obviously don’t have one. Hence the problem. I would also say (as people have previously) that your red line isn’t always what you think. Surely that’s one of the most complex and misunderstood elements of abuse. Not misunderstood on this forum I might add, society at large as in the ‘I wouldn’t put up with that’, why does she stay brigade.
Your red line (boundaries) moves (crumbles) or at least mine has.
I think the ‘if he hits me I will leave’ is usually an illusion. A self-deception which will most likely evaporate along with the last remnants of self respect and dignity.
An observation:-
Mine (and one before) have been abusive physiologically and physically and both fairly severe on the old violence.
The head twisting, shouting, lying, raging, belittling monster is far and away the worst to endure.
He hits me, it hurts (I sometimes hit him back) then it doesn’t hurt and I have to put some makeup on.
The pain of the other abuse, god that lives on and on and is a constant horror.
I’d take a broken rib(s) or a broken nose over that anytime. Oh, in fact I have ‘taken’ them. Hahaha. Bit of black humour there.
Anyway, I’m looking out of my patio windows and the sun is shining. My flower beds look beautiful and HE isn’t here. Am hoping I’ve drawn a line. Maybe a red one!?
-
The real Red Line was when he first shouted at me. I remember this so good even it was many years ago, probably because i was shocked. He seemed nice and calm person, I fell in love with him, he looked so different from my ex.
And then he’s been shouting at me for at least an hour. I’ve been shocked, cried, but he didn’t care. I’ve done something wrong and he’s been punishing me. This is where I had to go away without questioning myself. This is where I had to trust my own feelings.
But I stayed. i thought, I’ll be more accurate next time and will learn from mistakes. I thought I really done something bad, because he is nice and calm and this is me who made him angry. I thought relationship is a work and it’s not always nice. And he was nice and kind again next day… So I stayed.There have been hundreds of similar situations. And i crossed that line again and again without even noticing how I am breaking my own borders and losing my own personality.
And in the end… There wasn’t another Red Line which made me to quit. I’ve crossed all of them already. I just thought I will die if i stay. I’ve been feeling so bad… I started to read. My first intention (of course) was to read something to learn how to improve our relationship. But the book I bought had opposite effect and opened my eyes. Not opened really, but I started to doubt, maybe there is everything ok with me? And I just started to read about this, about abuse, educated myself. And started my long journey.
So my answer is – don’t wait for the Red Line. You’ve crossed all of them many years ago. You are master in crossing them.
There won’t be any miracle which will make you brave enough to quit. You need to do it yourself. You need to take responsibility for your own life and to make this decision. Be adult. It’s extremely hard, but possible.xx
-
-
I keep coming back to this post…. so comforting 🙂🙂🙂🙏😘
@Balloons – so i also really like your reply in how you planned it and treated the end, the main goal as a planned booked holiday.I will pm you to chat more if thats ok x
-
me too @Rubymurray, somehow it stuck for me and I’ve been doing just that. I even just bought some coloured nail varnish, got a note to remember sunscreen. Its sort of taken the focus off it being horrendous, maybe subliminal subconscious thinking I really am going on a nice holiday… Suppose it is in a way.
xx
-
-
-
-
Yes, this is a really excellent post. I have been back to it several times and read it through start to finish each time. I’m not entirely sure why it’s so good. I think perhaps because it makes me realise that that Red Line question is one that we all grapple with. Isn’t the not feeling alone such a big part of our battle? Doesn’t that inject us with a dose of liquid strength?
Whoever said that the red line moves/adapts is so right… but the more we read about how other people are dealing with it, the better, I think, a grasp we are able to get on how to just lay that line down. We are better to recognise that Red is Red, and that’s ok. A small hit is as bad as a big hit. Metaphorical or literal.I’m going to throw another thought out there… while I have an idea of my Red Line in my head, I am actually thinking that, in fact, it might not be as I imagine it… I think that maybe, in a rather Harry Potter-esque kind of a way, it might just drop from the sky in front of me me and say “that’s me, it’s me! I am your Red Line!! Do it now!!”
Has it happened that way with anyone? X
-
Yes Lottieblue, that’s exactly what happened to me. I did not know my red line was going to be my red line until I’d already crossed it i.e. another abusive incident.
I nearly escaped previously but went back and so so so regretted it. With the latest incident I just thought I don’t want to be here again in a week/month/years time wishing I’d taken my chance to escape. I finally realised it is never going to stop. And it is never going to get better. In fact, it was getting a lot worse.
So with the help of these good ladies on this forum I did just that-escaped. Not planned (I would suggest planning if you can but sometimes you don’t have that luxury).
And I can say for now, even though I’m exhausted and overwhelmed, I don’t regret it one bit xx
-
Weirdly, I think my red line has become boredom. I’m just so sick of living like this, like a shadow of my former self, downtrodden, heart racing, constantly on the lookout, reading endless books on abuse, the whole fkn thing, Im BORED!!!! (not of any of you lovely ladies) I just want a normal life, like normal people, doing normal things, laughing and joking and enjoying life.
So, yes, the red line moves.
But apart from boredom I think it is also Fear….the more I learn, the more I have this very bad feeling about everything, like this is train crash in slow motion…an accident waiting to happen….its like that slow motion falling glass has suddenly gone full speed…..my gut is suddenly saying GO.
-
-
-
Sort of yes and no, that is a red line in a way, I just can’t do it anymore, its no life, I feel like a prisoner, I’m reading a book about a woman who was in a concentration camp, so many similarities…
As KIP pointed out, and for me too, the line has been crossed many many times, I kept on moving it, so many lines really, so many red flags, as cantmakedecisions pointed out the floor is red, red it a warning sign…its a warning sign in nature too. So for me, nothing major has happened in terms of the situation particularly, apart from another spin around the cycle of abuse…No, what has happened is my education and knowledge has just risen exponentially in the last month. And that has created a massive FEAR. That fear is the red line. For me and for my children. And although I am also scared of the can of worms I will be opening. The fear of him (who has not yet hit me) is far far worse. My gut is saying get out. 100% this is over. Get out. Something bad is going to happen if I don’t.
-
-
So may red lines I have allowed to be crossed.
I remember having the worst anxiety/panic attack and honestly in my minds eye I could see the evil. His evil face in an almost hallucination kind of way. Powerful. My body warning me. I often don’t remember the violence, my mind and memory does a disappearing act. I know it’s trying to help but really, it’s not helpful.
My red line. Think we have finally arrived at it. I am on police bail for a very serious offence.
DON’T BE THE SAME FOOL I HAVE BEEN.
GET OUT. IT WILL ALWAYS BE BETTER WITHOUT THEM. THEY ARE BAD FOR YOUR HEALTH AND WELL-BEING.
OH, AND DON’T DO WHAT I DID – PICK ANOTHER. SAME-AGAIN.
-
@Same-again, Im so sorry, are you ok?
-
-
Hi Everyone
Like Lottieblue I’m hoping that one day I will just wake up and say thats it! No more.
At the moment I’m still doing endless reading uve read 4 books in a week, im trying to focus on myself healthy eating, walking etc. Ive been making a journal and slowly I feel I’m gaining confidence and the old me is creeping back. I know I’m not ready to go yet BUT I’m getting myself there, my anxiety during lockdown escalated pretty bbad when I thought it was under control
. My next steps will be to get legal advice , keep writing in the journal, and then im hoping that once another abusive episode happens ill have everything ready to just say no more and go. Thank you ladies ever so much for all your kind words and support it really has meant a lot to me xx -
Amazing @beautifulday! Xx
-
-
@beautifulday has it going?
@wheresmysparklegone exactly, same, it does seem though that suddenly enough is enough, whether it’s a major incident or just that your tolerance goes or you just feel the time is right practically.
It’ll come. What do you feel is stopping you? There’s another post about What’s stopping you?” Which had some interesting comments
Xx -
@iliketea
Hi lovely! I’m doing better today I wasn’t so good on the weekend and guess what? I had my chat with my local WA Today ! I was so nervous but the lady was so friendly and listened to everything, we spoke nearly an hour! It flew by and she confirmed to me that yes its abusive , I feel much better after our chat xx how are you? -
-
I wanted to revisit this in case it helped someone. The post has got long now. There have been some really interesting conversations and comments about the Red Line.
I wanted to revisit this because I’m out now. It’s over. Did I reach my Red Line? Did it end in a massive showdown? Was there a specific incident?….No, nothing, I just walked out one day. I just reached my Enough Is Enough moment, I just couldn’t do it anymore, to me or to the children. Yes I did plan it, yes I did speak to a solicitor, yes I did my homework, yes I got educated about abuse, yes I got support, mental health support, counselling, GP, and yes it was a long road, but in the end, I just walked out. And quietly shut the door.
How come?
Because, as someone said early on in this thread, I had already reached my Red Line and gone over it many times. They said the floor was red. That visual image really stuck for me. For some that it is literal, for me it was metaphorical, red flags every where, warning signs, red of his anger, red for danger, I felt scared, I felt worried, I felt sick, I just didn’t want to do any of it any more. So why then, why that particular day? Lots of reasons but one was it was convenient, it worked, it was a day that worked in terms of safety. It was time, it could have been the next week, or the one after, but I felt I was living in an accident waiting to happen. That gut feeling that this was never going to get better and that it was only going one way.
And that was it. I left. Its over. There was no Red Line, it was long ago, it was way in the past, and it will never been in my future.
Sending strength to everyone wanting to get out. You can do it, and it will be ok. xx -
I’ve often thought of this as when the pain level of the abuse reaches 10/10.
Any lower number, even 9.5 and likely and you won’t go.
I hit 10/10 early (detail removed by Moderator) a handful of years ago, unfortunately I’m still here as I can’t figure out the practical and financial side of it, I’d have to pay a very high price in terms of where I’d live and even worse I’m worried he’d try and ruin any future happiness for me. I couldn’t disappear as I have grandchildren close by and work I really like that keeps me going, so he’d find me easily. It’s a small town and my work is done in public spaces.
Many times I’ve heard stories from him on how he’s plotted and succeeded in messing up the lives of people who’ve dared to cross him.
My 10/10 moment came after I went to see my favourite (detail removed by Moderator), oddly he doesn’t stop me from doing those things.
Trains were a bit strange so I arrived really early, and my very favourite (detail removed by Moderator) came out of the dressing room to greet some friends just arriving.
On the way back he decided to stop and chat to me for no obvious reason, and we’ve been friends ever since.
The way he spoke to me wasn’t in any way inappropriate or sleazy, but clearly he enjoyed chatting to me, still does, and then when I went home and got shouted and verbally abused for leaving a light on, the contrast of the two conversations hit me big time.
I’m disappointed with myself for not leaving but I’ve not found much support as the abuse hasn’t been physical for a while, but being with him stresses me out mentally, living a restricted life in lockdown with him was hell. -
Thank you for all your helps in the past month or so. I can’t do it anymore. I’ll leave him to feel the pain that I feel. I appreciate you all and respect everything you taught me. He’s twisted my mind again and it’s my fault again for the millionth time. I’m the violent one, I’m a p****o cos I bang my head to get rid of the pain cos I can’t cope. It’s my (detail removed by Moderator) medicine fault. It’s just all all all all all me me me me me 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
-
@SA2020 banging your head is a very well recognised method of acute anxiety release. “Even” if this is your meds (which it doesn’t sound like it is), you definitely need to see/speak to your GP for an assessment.
Today, can you go to a private place and call the Samaritans and check in? Talk to them?
This isn’t you, it’s him, you are reacting to him. If you have done anything to him I bet you have reacted to him. It’s very normal. So far you’ve posted here, have you got support from anywhere else? Xx-
Yes I’ve got weekly appointments at WA and a councellor calls me weekly. I’ve (detail removed by Moderator) been hurt again and I hate him. He’s now sorry again. I can’t get help cos it’s down to me. I need to decide and I think I have but now need to just find the guts to jump. I’m on my bed and can’t move to my right or left side. They hurt. So because I asked him if he could (detail removed by Moderator). All (detail removed by Moderator) he was ashamed of what he done the day before so I had peace but now this. I’ve had my medicine over (detail removed by Moderator) and when he forced me to tell them, I put phone on speaker and the drs told him there is no way it’s that. Sorry for all posts just need to distract my mind from feeling low. I’m broken record I know.
-
-
-
-
Look up on google “head banging, self injury, anxiety” it won’t let me post the links. NHS and WMD both have descriptions.
-
Thank you, I didn’t know it’s a thing but I do feel I can’t cope when he backtracks and blamed me. It’s frustrating and I don’t know what else to do so that happens. I’ve just had the bank help me get an account and I’m gonna slide money to it as much as I can. What’s the difference between domestic abuse/violence/assult please?
-
-
I’m reading this and thinking about my red line – it was physical violence against me – if you “hit” me I’m out.
However…..I was so busy ensuring that red line was not crossed I became blinkered to all the other abuse!! The shouting, the gas lighting, double standards etc. Of course here was some shoves, but hey he was barging past it wasnt hitting. Then the throwing things, but not at me of course.
The danger of having a red line is we give ourselves an excuse to stay, we minimise so in our minds the line hasn’t been crossed – maybe because it’s easier to put up with it than to face what looks like a mountain to get out.
My other red line / shout and rant at me, and I’ll shout back – but don’t shout at my kids. That was crossed a few months before the final end but I think looking back it turned out to be my red line, my pivotal moment.
It’s good to have a walk away line but we move the line and we then tolerate what we should not be tolerating because it’s behind the line….
-
Really good point @headspinning. Really good.
-
-
@daisyfairydust for you. xx
-
Bumping @Buddy
-
Many red lines crossed a long time ago. Refusal to work. How he treated me when I had cancer. The control. Tighter and tighter. Have to check everything with him.
But during lockdown it all escalated. He won’t leave our (detail removed by moderator)yr old son alone and bullies him.
And he of course turned on me. Pinned me down and punched the counter by my head. Drove dangerously so I felt scared. Screamed at me and threw hot tea all over me. Called ME an abusive bully. A women who runs two businesses that he works in, but has become very small and quiet. Hardly speaks. Hides in my room until the screams tell me he is hurting our son again.
He crossed the line.
I’m not going back.
Taking legal advice and getting my sanctity and freedom back.
What took me so long?
-
One night when he was drunk (again) and had physically assaulted me (again), I ran out of the house and locked myself in my car and called the police (again). When they arrived, he told them I’d assaulted him and caused the cut to his hand and I got arrested. At that moment, I realised he’d actually lie to the police to get me into trouble and I knew it was him or me. I chose me.
-
Many red lines crossed a long time ago. Refusal to work. How he treated me when I had cancer. The control. Tighter and tighter. Have to check everything with him.
But during lockdown it all escalated. He won’t leave our (detail removed by moderator)yr old son alone and bullies him.
And he of course turned on me. Pinned me down and punched the counter by my head. Drove dangerously so I felt scared. Screamed at me and threw hot tea all over me. Called ME an abusive bully. A women who runs two businesses that he works in, but has become very small and quiet. Hardly speaks. Hides in my room until the screams tell me he is hurting our son again.
He crossed the line.
I’m not going back.
Taking legal advice and getting my sanctity and freedom back.
What took me so long?
-
The line that has been crossed is a sort of red line, in that I feel calmer and clearer. The final red line is going to facilitate the actual words but I am now just waiting for them.
What got me this close? One of my children telling me that they were staying away from home because of the way he treats them. The fact that those words have been spoken has made me feel physically sick. This child was the one I thought would never feel it but they do. And they’ve said so. I know now that I shall have all my children on side, and that if I don’t leave, that I shall lose them. This is a stark reality and my choice – a no-brainer. -
@lottieblue, the red line can be a realisation too, that’s what I learnt, that’s what happened to me. Wishing you all the strength to take those next steps. At some point you’ll be ready to close your eyes and breathe freely again. Xx
-
bumping @Buddy xx
-
He crossed so many red lines. I also was waiting sometimes wishing for him to hurt me physically. No one could see the shouting (well my kids did and that should have been enough) but I kept pushing it. One more try. One more chance. Finally I knew he cheated and it was such a relief. It was a reason to leave. Something tangible. And I feel blessed to have had that. Looking back I was stupid to wait so long. Reading others stories and having shared my experiences and been told that he is abusive and coercive has made me realise if you think something isn’t right then it isn’t. You need to get out. Trust yourself.
-
It’s so interesting because I have sat here having my coffee peacefully, as he has gone out just crying and asking internally….”how bad does this have to get?’…Is it not bad enough that the children caught sight of me on the kitchen floor, is it not bad that enough that one of the children said ‘don’t talk to her like that’?… which is why I jumped on here to talk…because I knew someone would have asked a similar question from their depths…
He is in that come down peaceful phase and for the first time going to therapy starting this week. All is not ok with me inside though..because I don’t trust a jot of the amount of commitment he will have to put in to turning the tide. I sit here telling myself ‘just wait…wait till he shows you that even with help he won’t change…then you have permission to get out…you have given him the benefit of the doubt.’ Truth is he has had the benefit of the doubt hundreds of times. Yesterday he sat down with the children and apologised to them for the hurt and pain he causes them…but I ask myself is he now using the children? I have no idea. Questions….squirrels 🙂 I have convinced myself the ‘next time’…when last week I was adamant. I am denying myself the peace I really deserve…and this saddens me.
-
You could be writing from my mind. I have been asking myself the same question. I have suffered spitting, physical abuse, name calling, awful mind games, screaming at me in public, awful Valentines abuse, you name it.
I keep asking and my mother has asked “what will it take for you to snap and leave?”
I honestly think it’s pride – never being bought even a cup of tea by him. Shame, that I have allowed myself to endure this disgusting treatment. But probably the deal breaker would be betrayal. Finding out he has been messaging / chatting to / contemplating cheating / cheating. After everything he has said and done to me, that would be the final straw. I would never get past that. I left a marriage of (detail removed by Moderator) years over that. Fidelity is everything. I know it is for him too so either one of us would have to cross that line.
I’m scared of doing that to him because it would be goodbye and he would be ruthless in moving on from me. I know that even going on a date with another man, let alone sleeping with them, would take herculean courage and I know I will be thinking about This One for years. It hasn’t even been a year but I will have him in my system for a long time. I dread that reality.
-
-
Bumping for @gettingtired and new women to the forum xx
-
Bumping for @gettingtired – ah – just noticed I bumped before for you, anyways, here it is again, in case it helps. xx
-
What a post. I dont even think i have a red line how bad is that. Im getting stronger Im trying to change to learn to plan but not to get out not yet i dont think.Im just planning to survive to find a life with him a proper life if that doesnt work well who knows will that be my red line? This has made me really think about where i stand, how much more would I take?
Gosh this is an amazing post. -
Another thought provoking thread and I love Anonymous’ squirrels in the attic analogy 😊
KIP’s comment really stands out for me:
That red line keeps moving. You should ask yourself when was the red line first crossed. I bet it was a long time ago x
I’m going to throw a slight curve ball in here. I think it’s really valuable to think about our personal red lines. But I don’t think red lines in abusive relationships are the same as red lines in ‘normal’ relationships. In a normal relationship where boundaries are healthy and respected a red line is a deal breaker – it’s something you are not willing to accept and once crossed the relationship is over. It’s that simple. When there’s abuse red lines have been crossed without you even knowing.
Who would have the following red line?
Being brainwashed into thinking your thoughts/feelings/boundaries do not matter and that it’s safer to stay with the brainwasher than to leave.
This line was crossed for all of us before we were aware of any of the other ones. So when the other red lines happen, you’re in such a state of mental/emotional turmoil that you can’t simply recognise and act on what would normally be a deal breaker.
So the red lines we’re talking about that pushed people into leaving are really red floors, to use can’tmakedecisions’ words. They’re not things that you just don’t think are acceptable, they’re things that threaten your survival.
I remember thinking that if my ex hit me I’d be able to leave. But would I? I don’t know. I think part of me was scared that I wouldn’t and that made me feel really scared and powerless. At the time I didn’t know anything about how abuse works and was judging myself by ‘normal relationship’ standards (who would put up with this behaviour? I must be really weak and useless to not have left). In hindsight, the reality is that I was hoping that some external event (external to me) would enable me to leave because I didn’t believe that I would ever find the strength in myself to do it. There was an element of wanting permission to leave, again this was wanting something external to enable me to leave. I can see how extreme events could bypass this, because the while the trauma bond convinces us that it’s safer to stay put, some events can be so dramatic that it is clearly safer to leave. But extreme events aside, I think we leave when we are able to see the reality of what is happening and can see that if we stay we will lose ourselves by our abuser taking more and more chunks out of us, whereas leaving gives us the chance to find ourselves again, albeit through a long healing process. This might happen when you just feel like the cumulative effect is like a red line, or maybe you’ve managed to take steps to find your inner strength. I expect there are other ways too.
I guess my bottom line is that if a red line helps you leave, then great and well done you for taking that brave step. But if you’re still waiting for that red line, don’t give yourself a hard time about it. Don’t judge yourself for the red lines that haven’t pushed you to leave yet. You are in an incredibly difficult position. You are living with someone who actively works to damage your wellbeing and mess with your mind and emotions. There is nothing wrong with you for feeling stuck. The thing keeping you stuck is the psychology of abuse, not any fault or weakness in you. You will leave when you’re ready. It might be later than you’d like, but it will be the right time for you. xxxx
-
-
@nbumblebee
Bumping for you hun -
Mine was pretty much like @iliketea experience
After nearly (detail removed by Moderator) years of ups and downs on and offs it all happened in a weekend! Well the devaluation had started again probably a week or two before and I could sense it amping up with nothing being good enough nothing being right and almost comparing what he had (me) to what he wanted or could have . Then came the arguement ….. after him poking me and goading me for a response I snapped and he got the arguement he wanted . He insulted as usual verbal and psychologically put me down . I could feel myself breaking again and getting low and I new what came next . The discard . He was either or was about to speak to other women meet other women and have sex with other women . So I went to bed on the (detail removed by Moderator) night and said to myself if he doesn’t touch me or speak to me before I wake up I’m leaving! He’d already started withholding sex again (another control and sign he was cheating or about to)
Woke up for work ordered a cab packed as I was getting ready and left for work and forever (speak it into existence) that was (detail removed by Moderator) weeks ago and not heard a peep from him and vice versa. Xx
It comes when you least expect it . Although I do remember thinking I’d been through the cycle so many times I new what was coming next and what the red flags were. And I’d told myself if he starts to act like there’s other women then there are indeed other women and to get out. He’d broken me and hurt me so many times and the sheer fact he thought HE was the prize and still had complaints and the nerve to tell me he had high expectations and I wasn’t meeting them basically, after everything he had done !! I just new it would never change because he will never be happy -
Bumping for @nbumblebee and all the other ladies that need this xx
-
-
Hi All,
I’m currently reading a lot of ladies are struggling with leaving their abusive relationship so I’ve bumped this post by the inspirational @iliketea. Was really helpful to me and hopefully will help you too. Take heart a lot of the posts are from women who were you are and have now successfully left.
Stay strong and sending a big virtual hug 🤗 xx
-
-
He crossed mine (detail removed by Moderator) ago after his (detail removed by Moderator) funeral and he got really extremely drunk one night and we were out in the car and he’d never spoken to me like that before. It was the most cruel nasty abusive things he could say, it felt like he’d been taken over because before that if he was drunk he was the most sweet loving man I’d ever been with. I honestly didn’t recognise him. When we got home I got out the car quickly and I locked the door so he couldn’t get in. Unfortunately I didn’t realise for a while that I’d left my phone in the car. When I realised I went back out to get it and he was looking through my (detail removed by Moderator) messages and he’d seen one (detail removed by Moderator) had sent me about him. It wasn’t nice at all and he hadn’t done anything to deserve it. He’s never been nasty to her or told her off or anything. He’s really nice to her. She can be harsh sometimes and it was bad. He got mad about it. I grabbed my phone off him saying you can’t look at those and ran in the house and locked all the doors and windows. When he realised I wasn’t letting him in he was so mad he was shouting abuse at me all the neighbours must have heard him. He went on for hours. I told him I wasn’t letting him until the next day when he was sober. I said I’d book him a hotel room but he didn’t want one. I eventually fell asleep but he woke me up by coming in the bedroom, it was about (detail removed by Moderator) and he’d managed to break in. He was calm and quiet and just got into bed and we fell asleep. In the morning he didn’t remember any of it and when I told him what he’d said he said it wasn’t really him he want like that and he didn’t think any of those things. He was so sorry and he’d never do it again. But that’s when it changed for me. No way I could stay with this man. I knew it would get worse. I know he was grieving but that’s not a excuse for that. He needed help and I knew he wasn’t going to go and get it. I told him it was over. He ignored this every time and carried on as normal but he’d stopped the verbal abuse. Whenever i said you’ve got to look for somewhere to live he’d ignore it. Then one day the verbal abuse stated again and thats when I lost it and hit him and he hurt me trying to stop me. He was ashamed and very sorry. I just kept saying it was over and he needs to move out as soon as possible. It was after that when he finally listened time and agreed to move out. It had taken a couple of months before he actually acknowledged what I was saying and finally said he’s moving out.
-
Literally the best post ever! Incredibly thought provoking & I know my red line was crossed decades ago, but I was too young & inexperienced to recognise it fully or have the courage to change things. I felt stuck, was told I had nowhere else to go or anyone to rely on, so became dependent & my world shrunk.
Fast forward & now I’m out it’s all glaring me in the face, the emotional & psychological abuse that’s left scars that run deep, all the while I’m still programmed to believe it was somehow my fault. I know that’s not true, but the mind is a hard nut to crack! Lol sorry couldn’t resist a reference to the fabulous squirrels!
I’ve recently paid the price for reacting to the abuse whilst still in the relationship and sadly despite a judge acknowledging that I had been in a coercive & controlling relationship I received a charge for thumping my ex in a response to his evil behaviour. Word of the wise, don’t let yourself reach this point, that they’ve broken you down so far that you act like them.
Know your worth, leave their miserable life to themselves & grab control of your life & your future while you’ve still got time on this beautiful earth.
When you’re lying on your death bed you can look back & feel proud of all you’ve accomplished as a warrior woman.
I’ve shed my old skin & Im ready to show the world my true self at long last! Xx -
What’s my red line ?
Firstly what an excellent thought provoking post. Like many, my red line was crossed so often, and I was mostly in denial and making it ok. You know the score, making all the excuses for his behaviour. I was strong ! I was not going to fail, I love him, he makes me happy ok only 80% of the time but that’s ok, I can live with that… I couldn’t of course, I developed chronic IBS literally s**tting myself. My ex ticked all the boxes of a seasoned abuser, I was going to say apart from sexual abuse but I guess withdrawing sexually from me because I was un f**kable ( his words ) also abuse.
My actual RED LINE, was not the worst thing by far, he locked me out of the house, refused to open the door even when I called the police, I begged him to let me in for (detail removed by Moderator) hours, at that point I decided I was no longer prepared to be humiliated by him.
His excuse (detail removed by Moderator) when I returned for some clothes and medication was he locked me out to prevent the situation escalating, he locked me out to prevent him hitting me, wow what insight.
I left, I walked away .. I was ready to go. Was I looking for a reason to leave? Maybe but also it was time, I was ready and it just clicked.
I have tried to leave before, I had him arrested (detail removed by Moderator) ( the police did very little tbh , other than advise he would likely kill me one day .. )
I had no idea about trauma bonding, or n**********c behaviour but the one thing I have always done is told someone! Find someone you trust and tell them , it’s always been my protective factor , speak your truth.
My friend helped me to be strong enough to leave, because she knew she regularly Checked in with me for 5 years , never judged me.
I have a fair way to go, but I’m out, and staying out.-
So happy for you that you got your freedom
I haven’t heard the term trauma bonding?…. will read up on that
I have only recently started speaking to close friends and colleagues, i didn’t really think people would believe me but they have been really supportive. After years of defending him and covering it up it feels strange.
It’s lovely to hear when people have got out the other end xx -
-
-
My red line was crossed over 30 years ago and still i stay. If anything he was worse in the early days as he used to drink at least once a week and come home drunk, and that’s when violence happened. Gradually over the years the violence reduced to threats and verbal abuse. I wish i had walked away the first time he shouted at me, the first time he hit me, the first time he was messaging other women, the first time he shouted at our kids. I have planned to leave many many times but never find the courage to walk away, initially i thought if i loved him enough i could help him overcome his ‘anger issues’, then after losing all my friends and not seeing much of family i became stuck in a rut.
I have over the last few years joined a gym and made friends and trying to get my strength back and have told a couple of close friends bits of what has been happening, i’m also recently increased my anti-depressants to try to clear my head
I hope one day i will be brave enough to be free x -
-
I’ve had relationships end with ‘normal’ men. Sometimes I ended it, sometimes they did. It wasn’t working out for one reason or another, so we split up, just like that. Of course, there was surprise, sadness, upset, disappointment and even anger. But isn’t it interesting, the complete absence of self-doubt?
Maybe even thinking about red lines should be warning enough?
-
My red line was a few weeks ago. I’ve not been out dancing since before my kids were born. So many years. And I got invited out with friends. I was so excited and I knew it would be a difficult day with my husband. The week leading up was stressful enough. Asking why I was (removed by moderator). Why I was (removed by moderator). Spent (removed by moderator) hours that day being berated. Asking why I need to be (removed by moderator). Why I would complete disregard what my husband thinks bc hes “(removed by moderator)”. Threatening to leave the house and not be back in time for me to go out. Telling me if I was gonna be out to just not come back at all and go sleep with someone else for all he cares. I was constantly trying to move away from him bc our kids were present for this whole fight. We got kinda stuck in the doorway and h shouted in my face and raised his fists in anger. He didn’t hit me but he was angry and trying to throw his weight around. I still insisted that I deserved to go out with my friends. I deserved to feel human for a few hours. He continued to escalate and told the kids (removed by moderator). Crying and whatnot. Even as I was getting ready he was sat trying to apologise to me. Continuing the conversation. Wouldn’t even leave me alone when I was on the toilet. It was absurd.
And I’ve been sat thinking so much about it. How extreme his response was. I hadn’t done anything wrong. I wasn’t wanting anything unreasonably. I rarely go out. And he lost his mind. The second he felt his control over me slipping he had a fit. Bc normally I have stayed home. I’ve given into him and cancelled plans or gone places he considered acceptable with people he approved of. And that was the red line. I don’t think he will ever hit me. And honestly I wish he would bc it would make it easier. But the pain of what I’m currently experiencing is worse than a punch would be. So I’ve not left yet. But I’ve made the decision. And that feels like a great first step. I will not be emotionally abused anymore.
-
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
