The ‘other side’ of abuse

[Caterina]

I’ve created a couple of topics since I’ve been here, having come out of an abusive relationship, that still haunts me, but I’m dealing with it.

I was just thinking, about the ‘other’ form of abuse, that doesn’t involve violence or threats or intimidation, but a different kind of control. I’m sure many of you have experienced it, and I’m also sure it’s why many fall victim to returning to their abuser. It’s certainly why I did several times before I finally made the break for good.

It comes in the form of:

“When you left me you shoved the knife in, you have left my life in tatters, all the horrible things I said and did were in RESPONSE to things YOU did (therefore excusing them), you accuse me of ‘gaslighting’, the most heinous thing that a person could do to another, ALL people are capable of saying and doing nasty stuff when they feel unfairly criticised or vulnerable (another attempt at excusing abuse), you’ve ripped my heart out. I am crushed, absolutely rock bottom, because of YOU! What you’ve done is the worst that anyone has ever done to me, my heart is bleeding uncontrollably (big-time melodrama), my life will never be the same…”

When one button doesn’t work, they try another. Designed to evoke sympathy AND self-loathing and lack of worthiness, which ‘may’, they hope, just get you back there.

When I ignore and refuse to engage with all of that madness, I am then accused of being ‘heartless’, and ‘you clearly never loved me to begin with’.

It’s just insidious, isn’t it?

[KIP.]

Yip, and notice how the spotlight turns from his dysfunctional nasty abuse to you. This is a great trick they play. You start off trying to discuss the hurt he has caused and end up trying to defend your behaviour. I even ended up apologising! Terrible mind games. Thats why no contact is so important.

[Relieved]

This form of abuse is mainly what I experienced so didn’t recognise it as abuse and stayed in the relationship for decades. It makes you feel you are losing your sanity – I knew he was at fault but could not understand how he managed to twist everything so I was to blame. It changes the way you think – it’s a form of brainwashing. It will take some time to undo decades of this but I’m getting there and at least I’m aware now which is a huge help.

As so many men seem to do this it’s almost like they get training or is it just what they witness growing up!?

[Anabela]

Oh, this side of abuse is the worst!!! Because it messes with your head so much and constantly makes you feel guilty of the things that are no fault of yours!!
When I said I am leaving him, he almost killed me and was arrested for that. I dropped the charges. Now all I am hearing from him endless messages how I ruined his life, how he had to live with my lies, how he cannot forgive me for being dishonest. How my actions made him that mad and how (poor him) he is too embarrassed to stay in his flat as neighbours are looking down on him (those neighbours helped me that night when I ran away from him). And I almost feel guilty. And then I have to look at my whole past year and a year before to justify to myself my behaviour and my constant fear of him which just paralysed my actions.

[Nina]

I found that mental abuse worse than the violence and it’s still going round in my head. My ex gave me rotten food disguised and I’d eat it, even though it was horrible as I knew he’d be angry if I didn’t. Then he’d tell me afterwards that it was off and mouldy and if I got upset and asked him why would he do that, he’d say I was overacting and always looking for an argument.
He hid my children’s favourite toys and tablets from them and then told them off for not looking after their things, he made them look for them for weeks. After he got arrested we found them when we were packing,hidden on top of a wardrobe.
I could write a book on all the spiteful games he played. How men can get pleasure from mentally tormenting women and children, I have no idea x

[Caterina]

I think that long after the relationship is over, you still labour over all these ‘whys’ and ‘hows’… I think that’s normal for some because you feel if you come to understand what it was all about, you can finally break away from any torment you still endure in your head. I know maybe I ‘think’ too much, instead of just saying, “Just forget about it, move on!” I mean I HAVE done just that, but I’d be lying if I said it’s just all completely forgotten.

1) It’s hard to reconcile quite delusional and crazy behaviour with someone who, in every other aspect of their life, seems perfectly ‘normal’, holds down a steady job or career, is loved by all his friends and family, is a ‘success’ in life in so many ways. This is part of why you end up blaming yourself, because you think, “He CAN’T be crazy, he’s not insane… so there has to be some truth in what he says about me. How can someone just have a small part of their brain that isn’t functioning right? Why can’t anyone else see it?” Would be much easier if one day you found him dressed up in a wig in the attic, talking to his dead mum, like in ‘Psycho! Then you could say, “Ahhh, so he IS nuts, it was never ever anything to do with me!”

2) Not wishing to ‘generalise’, but most women have a very strong nurturing instinct. You may see someone as tormented in some way, but feel obliged to not walk out on them. The old “They know not what they do.” It’s an exception women make for their children all the time. And in some relationships I think men touch on our maternal instincts. I think most men try and evoke some element of ‘mothering’ from their partners, but whether they would admit to that or even realise it is another thing.

3) The ‘zero empathy’ thing. It’s so hard to understand. Because from the moment we are tiny we understand empathy pretty quickly. As soon as we learn about pain, we then experience the pain of inflicting it on others. Empathy is hard-wired! Or so you would think. So because we believe that, it becomes so difficult to come to grips with the idea that someone doesn’t have any. Especially if they are ‘sane’ in every other way a human can be. So again, this thought can lead you to thinking, “He must be right about everything he says about me!”

Anyway those are my theories! 🙂

[KIP.]

Everything you write makes perfect sense on paper. When you’re caught in the middle of this behaviour it’s so hard to make any sense of it. I once read that leaving an abuser is like a sudden death. You have to accept that you will not get any closure or explanation for their behaviour. You just have to go total no contact and try to recover the best you can.

[KIP.]

Have you read ‘living with the dominator’ by Pat Craven. Also, I think a lot of these men are n*********s. ‘Gaslighting’.

[Nina]

It does make sense Caterina. Today I’ve been honestly thinking if he just can’t remember the night he attacked us, all seven hours of it. Do they just block it out? I just can’t believe anyone so guilty can protest their innocence so strongly. In the past when he’d done terrible things he couldn’t deny, he’d get upset and cry when I would ask him why. He’d just say he couldn’t remember doing it and he was worried he was getting dimentia like his father. He was only in his (detail removed by Moderator), I’d then feel sorry for him as he was so convincing and I’d be the bad guy again.

[Caterina]

They don’t ‘block it out’, they justify it in their addled minds. Or make excuses to absolve themselves of responsibility, like a child would… “I didn’t! He MADE me do it!” Whatever it takes to maintain control and not have to look at their own behaviour.

[older lady]

Asking a man who is being domestically abusive to look at his own behaviour is a challenge with potentially severe consequences. In my own situation, my daughter’s father tends to rank people in a hierarchy. Some people he would tolerate the challenge from, but guess who gets to pay for it later? I am expected to look at my own behaviour all the time. In my situation, it feels very much like I should feel responsible for being his victim. If there weren’t a victim, there wouldn’t be a perpetrator. So it’s my fault for succumbing, not his fault, for being abusive. This is something that I think victims of rape have to challenge. The argument is something like, she was in the street, at midnight, dressed in a short skirt, so she was asking it. Or, well she married me and she must have known what I was like. I once was asked by a man, ‘why did you trust me?’. In other words, the fact that I trusted him made what I suffered my fault. I would change the gender in the statement to “I didn’t! SHE made me do it!”. Responsible for being victimised by being born a woman. That’s addled for you.

[Caterina]

That’s very true ‘older lady’, trying to get them to look at their own behaviour is pretty impossible. They will see it as an out-right attack on everything they are, and then you will be faced with hostility. How much of that is them really believing they are wonderful and how much of it is out of desperation to avoid self introspection and guilt, I’m not sure. Possibly a bit of both. Either way it is completely selfish and impossible to live with.

That misplaced sense of feeling responsible for being a victim, succumbing, etc. “Why did you trust me?” (i.e. “more fool you”). Such a perpetrator cannot be more lacking in humanity and empathy than that. “It’s YOUR fault,” for believing me, for wearing the short dress, etc, etc. You ‘evoke’ the bad behaviour – nothing to do with them! Never ever having to take responsibility for any decision they make.

With that logic, one would blame a terrified and cowering dog for being kicked, because somehow its’ vulnerability or naive trust is what evoked the hostility. Totally ****ed!!!

I really hope you are no longer living with this man.

[Caterina]

Some ‘anthropological’ stuff I’ve read about ‘the unclear roles of men in post-feminist society’…

Talks about how for around 200,000 years men were the dominant hunter/gatherers in relationships, the leaders of their households and families. Infidelity, rape and physical abuse of their spouses, inequality of the sexes (we couldn’t even vote until about 100 years ago!)… all these things were ‘the norm’. A woman showing any interest in anything carnal was a ****. Women were just there to dutifully procreate and look after their partners, in exchange for a roof over their heads and some food.

Then, suddenly in the past century, everything gradually changed. We finally started to receive the same status! This supposedly jarred men into ‘adapting’, and the confusion over their new (unclear) roles. It ’emasculated’ them, and all that dominant testosterone bouncing around for all those years suddenly had to become contained. For many, it just caused too much ‘confusion and insecurity’! And those are the men that feel threatened by a strong woman who challenges them, and in response they will seek out other ways of domination, in order to sustain their sense of ‘masculinity’. FFS! Some more balanced men have adapted, and find other ways of expending their testosterone and power needs, by going to the gym and doing other macho things, but they are still able to be tender and respectful towards women the rest of the time. The others… well, they are still needing to dominate women in order to give them a sense of masculinity and purpose.

Ha ha! I should write a book… 😀

[Nova]

Hi Caterina…had to respond, seriously does your head in doesn’t it?! and we all know about this on this forum.

I just posted about him…switching on me..I’ve said it many times before & it remains the same, his problems became mine.
First up, there is no problem…however the dominator doesn’t operate like that, he has to invent a problem…or there no control/manipulation/hierarchy. Harmony is his enemy

What chaos shall he create today? perhaps smashing something, my favourite cup, the washing machine, the sofa? …not working…perhaps the car?..ALL to get the goods, the reaction and more importantly the interaction…this is what he loves most, the arguments, the shouting his ‘point of view’ the dominance, no room for you &/or your opinion. You are not at all significant except your the ‘vehicle’ the excuse to dance up and down and freak out, as otherwise he would be arguing to himself (which incidentally in my opinion is what hes doing)
he was able to deliver the bomb and then dis-engage disregard, ignore…as with pointed questioning
like What do you mean exactly? & when did I say/mean/do that? for instance…he just couldn’t answer or respond…as he was (this is the best bit) WRONG!
In order for this abuse cycle to be maintained and his and our role…to be ‘set’…questions couldn’t be answered or acknowledged..just the back & forth flipping…the love bombing suck you back in…gaslighting (digging themselves out of their hole they created)

Like I said in another post…. its all…and its nothing at all. Sad and empty nothingness based on this rubbish ….anger hurt fear control manipulate.

hugs Cx

[Caterina]

Well the ‘dropping the bomb thing and running’… Yes. My ex and I did not live together, thankfully, or I would definitely still be trying to claw myself out of that situation. We discussed it, but fortunately for me there were a number of impracticalities to making it happen. It was something that would have required plenty of planning. Thank God neither of us was comfortably off and could just push a button and buy a house together!

So, as we didn’t live together, many of these verbal and controlling mind games would come in the form of an email! He would refuse to actually ‘speak’ about things to me (hang up on me or refuse to answer the phone), as he was terrified of being faced with contradictions or hypocrisy. When you are just ‘writing’, you can pick and choose what you decide to address, it’s a fool-proof way of avoiding anyone contradicting you or making you have to address any issues they have. So it becomes one long rant. A few times I would respond in writing, attempting to make a point, but everything I would say would be totally ignored, and all I would receive back was another message, telling me how completely evil and crazy I was. If I did ever challenge him in person he would squirm and change the subject, and turn it around in a way that I was at fault, not him. I was probably more articulate than him, which absolutely did his head in. Emails are safe… like HIM: “Why are you being such a nasty and unreasonable *****?” ME: “I just cannot tolerate you being abusive and calling me names and threatening me no matter what the conflict is.” HIM: “But why are you being such a nasty and unreasonable *****?” HA! Just stop reading the emails and return to sanity…

[SunshineRainflower]

I really relate to the phrase ‘harmony is his enemy’ and them creating problems where there were none. From the day that we met things started to go wrong, for example my texts would randomly and mysteriously not get through to his phone every now and again despite us both having new phones and I’d never experienced this problem with anyone else before. I am pretty certain now that they were getting through and he was deleting them. He did it because it created stress and chaos for me if he told me they hadn’t, because I ‘had to’ contact him every morning otherwise he’d think I was going to split up with him so I’d always be worrying that messages hadn’t got through. I think he just loved that it made me stressed, anxious and kept me on my toes, and took up my time when I should have been doing other things.

He would just suddenly get angry about random things causing me to feel worried and anxious that I’d been rude and upset him and I’d find myself apologising. There was lots of little subtle things that kept going wrong all the time and afterwards I realised that he was actually behind a lot of it deliberately just to cause chaos and stress whilst pretending it was just bad luck all the time. I have never known such ‘bad luck’ and so many things go wrong before or since, it is so nice to be returning to a more peaceful daily life now that I’ve left. It was as if he detonated a bomb in my life to deliberately try to cause chaos and destruction, pure evil basically.

[Nova]

Yep I got that too! The ‘I cant talk, I’m no good talking on the phone’ or the shouting over me, screaming like a total freak, when I did challenge something. so I stopped, and became silent, they LOVE that.

The lengths and gobblegook in the emails just rants that went on and on and on…oh my word! I couldnt decipher most of it, had no clue, what his point actually was…he didn’t have one!

& the texts about nothing…’where are you?’ (control…yet taken from me as love) ‘its just that blah blah in the office really doesn’t like me, hes got it in for me (HUGE inferiority complex)he’d often say, look I’ve haven’t got qualifications like you, but I’m just as smart I am the same(me thinking) what are you on about? who has mentioned anything about qualifications like anyone CARES that much about you..how come you think that your that high on the agenda?!…maybe your wrong…
Him…’No.. see you should be on my side…I’d never say that to you’ …etc etc etc
so there is no way out of it, no resolution…only ‘problems’ manifested in his mind and delivered all dramatic like…its SO important.

Impossible to analyse rubbish like that, as it blows your mind…it just does not make sense.. that’s why.
There is no bottom line, no reasoning, no focus, nothing tangible, just angry thoughts in his head wanting to dominate and control by the only way he knows how…the stupidity of it.

phew!! though very interesting FROM a DISTANCE!
reminds me of those times and how stupid hateful & thankfully now, insignificant he really is.

Cx

[Caterina]

And when you DID apologise, it was never enough. “Oh that’s not sincere enough – you’re just saying it to appease me…” Unless you’re in a corner rocking back and forth, bleeding all over the floor with remorse, it’s not good enough. I remember once he said to me, “For what you’ve done (some vague and unremarkable thing that did not demonstrate complete reverence), you should be on your hands and knees begging me for forgiveness!” Anything less than complete prostration would not be enough. I look back and am amazed that I stayed on board for as long as I did.

[older lady]

I’m not sure about your anthropological theory. I thought the ‘caveman’ theory had been disproved? I seem to recall reading about indigenous tribal populations where men and women share more egalitarian roles, men parent the children very nurturingly and women go hunting. I think the caveman idea springs from our own patriarchal society trying to fill in the gaps. We look back and interpret some evidence from our own, modern day perspective. I’m pretty sure that there’s been a move to challenge this way of interpreting historical evidence. Its a bit like a religious society, and religion has been endemic and not very successfully challenged for millennia, trying to give a theory about stone circles. Obviously, they must serve a religious function… So in a patriarchal society, he must be Tarzan, and her indoors is, Jane. It doesn’t bear out in other mammalian species either. The female species is often more ‘dominant’, just look at rabbits. I think there’s more likely to be a sociological explanation for domestic abuse, to do with power and control of resources and a belief system that tells a man he is superior to a woman. If men don’t feel safe its not because of women, its because of man himself and the patriarchy that he has been born into.

[SunshineRainflower]

Interesting discussion. I believe that men have always known women were more powerful and stronger emotionally, and have there always feared us. What we fear we try to control. They also fear our sexuality, which is why for centuries religion sought to control us through shaming us for being sexual (the madonna/w***e dichotomy), and treating us as property to be sold into marriage or slavery and therefore controlled. I remember the first time I slept with my ex which was a fairly long time after we started dating as I didn’t want to rush anything. The next day he suddenly switched from being mr gentleman to laughing and ridiculing me about being ‘so sexual’ with him?! It was the most bizarre thing ever, as he had been extremely seductive, sexual and dominant with me, but apparently for me to respond in any way that wasn’t just lying there in silence meant that I needed to be shamed and ridiculed for ‘being too sexual.’ Hypocrisy as usual with these types of men – they can do what they like but apparently whatever we do is always wrong!

It’s a shame they can’t just relax and help create an equal society, but they have always wanted that power and will do anything to hold onto it. The pick-up artist communities and men’s rights groups of today give me chills with their scary views on women and society, the internet has unfortunately created a place for the worst of these men to gather together and discuss their vile, misogynistic ideas and share techniques in how to ‘conquer’ and rape women. I find it so awful how many famous women who have an online presence such as on twitter get trolled, death threats, rape threats etc simply because they are women. There is still so much progress to be made.

[Nova]

re his weird behaviour. apart from the texts emails shouting etc…another tool, in their abusive toolkit..the silence
I’ve experienced that on many different levels, 1;1 (he even text me from one room to another) within my own home, in bed, oh god that one where he virtually put one pillow between us, a physical barrier the sex distancing.. freaky! No discussion of course. sometimes, like a supposed ‘normal’ time…he’d randomly cross the road and kind of run.like an emu, (have to LOL) desperate to get to my place faster than me!! Honestly what the f is that about?? I used to think god almighty what DO you look like?? What are you doing??

Obviously just lost any/all respect…he still thought I’d stay forever…part of my problem, is feeling sorry, the empath in me,(I dont see that generally as a bad thing, its normal!) it was some kind of sympathy, like, I’m with him, hes not quite right…but what to do?
Definitely not a pleaser, which is a popular myth of DA, also not aiming high enough…I know that about myself, I’m not desperate top climb the ladder, I let things go, and I’m not doing that again….no way.

Its reciprocal or not at all. Cx

[Caterina]

Yeah I think my anthropological theory is quite clichéd, full of holes and very simplistic! I think it’s probably the type of theory that has perhaps quite easily played into the hands of men who are looking for a scapegoat… “If I open a door for a woman these days it either narks her or pleases her! What’s a man to do???”

I think the thing with mammals is, whatever species they are, they just concern themselves with ‘what works’, with regard to female vs male dominance within their social order. Male rabbits, lions, etc don’t have all these psychological issues with exerting themselves as dominant over females. They’ll fight other males to gain supremacy and be able to pass their sperm onto as many females as possible, but beyond that they seem to just want an easy life! The dominant male human is not behaving at all productively in terms of gaining the favour of females and forming successful and effective relationships.

And yes, the weird dichotomy going on with some mens’ views on female sexuality. They would be disappointed with a female partner who was indifferent, but at the same time they struggle with the idea of a woman with a more enthusiastic attitude towards sex! Because they equate enthusiasm with perhaps more ‘experience’ than they’d rather imagine, and an indication of potential infidelity (and pressure on them to ‘outdo’ any past experiences of the woman). They want an enthusiastic, sensual and experienced nun.

My ex couldn’t bear the thought that, in my (detail removed by Moderator), I had ever had a previous intimate encounter. Enthusiasm would just be a glaring reminder to him of this. He couldn’t bear that I had a past at all involving other males, couldn’t bear that I maintained any friendships with ex’s of the past, some from over (detail removed by Moderator) years ago, Facebook friends, etc. He thought he was so remarkable that he managed somehow to tolerate it through gritted teeth. When male friends would get in touch and suggest we meet for a coffee or something because they were going to be passing through where I lived, I found myself making excuses for why I couldn’t go because I just knew the massive rows it would create if I did go, or even mentioned it at all! One time in casual conversation, quite early on before I realised how ‘sensitive’ he was about such things, I made a casual reference, without any unnecessary detail of any sort, to an intimate experience I once had as a teenager. It was definitely in context to what we were discussing at the time, not at all just ‘out of the blue’! He went wild, and thought this was the most cruel and malicious thing that I could ever do, and (detail removed by Moderator) years later he would still bring it up and scream at me about it.

And yes, I’m equally shocked at some of the misogynistic diatribe I wander into on the internet. Men commiserating with each other over what a nasty lot we are!

[Caterina]

“he’d randomly cross the road and kind of run.like an emu, (have to LOL) desperate to get to my place faster than me!!”

That made me seriously laugh. 😀

[Caterina]

And texting, someone mentioned texting… I too would get the angry texts, loads one after the other… “Where are you?” “Why aren’t you answering me?” And sometimes I would answer in what he might deem a reasonable response time, like 10 seconds, and if the message didn’t get through for some reason (rare but sometimes texts just don’t get through), he’d accuse me of being a big fat liar. I would then take a screenshot of my text response from my computer to prove I had indeed responded, showing the time, etc. He would just ignore that of course.

One time when he was here we were looking at my iPad at something on Youtube, and an automatic message from Etsy came through, from a seller saying something like “Have a great Valentine’s Day!” I’d just bought my ex a Valentine’s present, and the seller was merely confirming delivery of the gift to me and sending good wishes. I quickly tried to swipe it away, because I didn’t want it to spoil the surprise. I then had to endure screaming, yelling, accusations, cross-examination, until I finally broke and told the whole truth, that it was a Valentine’s Day present, and that he had now spoiled the whole thing. He didn’t believe me. I sent him a screenshot of the convo transcript from Etsy. He ignored that too.

Oh the torture…

[Nova]

Haaa yep like a emu…fast trot down the street, Eeek…I think, lack of any sophistication springs to mind.

Everything is raw, can’t believe you said about the ex’s. Same. I’d say look tell me about your ex wife etc, I’m interested…nope not happening, very very guarded…I think ok he must be upset, torn apart! Little did I know they don’t want you connecting with their past / present as you’ll piece it all together quicker, no history is best for the abuser….they even move house, country continent…to cover their tracks.

I’d try to talk about my past, general chat, nope that’s not happening either. Loads of subjects about our lives were just never discussed because he flatly refused!

One time in a restaurant on holiday, he got p’d off at me for ordering something instead of ordering something, he thought I’d have, and sat sulking…even turned his face away from me! I just carried on eating, as if nothing was happening, of course I spent the night on the sofa…didn’t want him near me. Job done.
He took ownership of absolutely everything, that was introduced him…by me…mr no ideas, he never I mean never introduced me to any of his ‘friends’ ( work or otherwise) said I’d caused a fuss once ( when he was blatantly flirting with a work colleague, always looking over my shoulder )and so X years and years later, he deemed it the best decision that it shouldn’t happen.. Said no remember when .. Like I was a child..not that (detail removed by Moderator)..

Oh the more your reminding me the more I can nail the past…things I haven’t brought up since I kicked him out not that long ago…but he obviously wants me to forget it all!

C

[SunshineRainflower]

My ex was also incredibly cagey about his past, and got angry if I ever innocently asked about his exes. With my previous non-abusive boyfriends we were just calm and open about who we’d dated previously, it helps to put the person in context when you first start out and usually helps to understand eachother a little more.

My abusive ex however clearly had a lot to hide, which I realised by the end was a string of overlapping unfaithful relationships and no doubt sadly a lot of abuse. I hate to think of the trail of destruction he left behind him as he was so psychologically cruel to me and caused me utter chaos and extreme pain in a relatively short space of time, I am imagining some of the girls from when he was younger must have suffered terribly, all with him claiming innocence as usual. I really hope one day his reign of terror comes to an end but society still has a lot to do before this sort of behaviour has proper consequences.

When I start dating again it makes me want to arrive with a series of interview questions and a police check! I let so many things go with my ex assuming he was shy or sensitive about matters, blamed myself for being too nosy but all this did was enable him to hide his lies and cheating from me. I think I’ll be much more matter of fact with men in future, and not be scared to ask questions, make assumptions or justify bad behaviour in my head. If they are genuine with nothing to hide they should be able to handle it, and it will hopefully scare off the bad ones, or at least reveal inconsistencies so that I can then make a swift exit.

It would be so much easier if we didn’t have to weed out such awful men, I mean, who really has the time to create a false persona to trick someone into dating them before unleashing a carefully crafted plan of abuse? I never knew there were men out there like this before, it’s been a real eye opener and sadly makes dating even more exhausting and draining. I am so envious of ladies with nice normal partners!

[older lady]

Even theories of dominance in animals is now being disproved, as you say group roles probably has more to do with each member doing the thing they are adept at so the group is effective because when it comes to survival the most important quality is adaptability. Its interesting that you point out that males do in fact fight other males, not females. Our social environment has been manipulated in a very harmful way for certain members of society, so that we don’t get to perform according to our abilities and skills but according to our gender. I think men learn to have unrealistic and unhelpful expectations of themselves. Terms like Dawkins’ ‘selfish gene’ didn’t help because it suggested to many that its a natural drive for men to sow their seed and move on, when looking at other animal species suggests that the most successful are the ones that work together. Look at ants. Look at apes, but their environment is being eroded. There’s something wrong with our society. It doesn’t work, and climate change, wars, and a host of other issues proves it doesn’t work. Its why I sometimes think that domestic abuse is not a psychological issue but a sociological issue. There’s no denying that there are some pretty large populations of people whose society is structured to benefit the male gender above the female gender. There’s also sociological studies that show how women’s health does not improve as a result of marriage but a man’s does. There’s also still a gender pay gap. There’s also world wide poverty, with women the most vulnerable. Women work part time, they don’t have the same pension as the full time husband, they don’t have the same income to afford the ridiculous housing costs, women take the economic loss because society shows us that that’s how we should expect it to be. I was surprised when you said that women are natural nurturers, but that’s something that’s learned. We model ourselves on the patterns we are presented with. There are anthropological studies that show harmful cultural practices that persist because of the pressure of the group. This is a manipulated thing. Surely, a man’s view of a woman is a manipulated, artificial thing and not an inborn drive to dominate, caveman style. I think men have issues with men, they bond over football and the abuses of a different gender because we do not live in a healthy society, but a society driven by a learned dominance. Maybe it wasn’t like this once, maybe something has gone badly wrong and that is to do with the ascendency of one gender over the other accompanied by a whole host of arguments about why it is supposed to be like that. The natural order…

[older lady]

…or structural violence.

[Author]

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