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    • #105531

      Thought it might be good to get a thread going on what are the things that are worrying us about leaving and Getting Out. What is stopping us all from packing our bags and just leaving? Perhaps we can work out these worries and practical questions if we put our heads together.
      I’m going to start with a list of some of mine with the answers I have found. I haven’t left yet but its helping to tick off these things, its making me feel stronger and to think through the FOG (Fear Obligation and Guilt).

    • #105536

      How to leave when he is home all the time because of lockdown/unemployment/works from home.
      Pack a bag with all your essentials and move things slowly if you have a place to go already. Leave it with someone you trust. Could you pretend you’re selling stuff, your friend come round and take a bag instead. Pretend you’re having a clear out and put things in black bags for charity and load into your car. Take things to work and leave in your locker…..

      IDVA – could they help with a plan, they might have other ideas?

      Someone said the police could help, to escort you away and make sure you’re safe – but I don’t know if that is the case, perhaps someone else does.

      Need more ideas for this one!…

      In some areas there are Pet Refuge Services, google to see if there is one near you. Otherwise your Vets is a good place to ask about people who foster pets. I found someone in 20 minutes of asking. Boarding kennels can help to, especially at the moment when they are empty.

    • #105591

      What’s stopping me leaving?

      Guilt. Mainly. The thought in my head that I have been conditioned to believe: that it’s not him it’s me. I’ve got it all wrong. I have to just man up and get on with it.

      So much to lose. I would be walking away from (detail removed by moderator) of marriage and our home and our children’s home. His family own our house, so it’ll be me leaving for sure. It’s a lot to turn my back on. I know I want to do it but I just can’t imagine starting again somewhere else.

      Fear of what our children will say. All adults but still dependents. They feel that I can keep the peace in the home by just not winding him up.

      One day, when he’s really horrible to me, my hatred of him will overcome all of the above and I shall do it. But in the meantime I live with fear and apprehension of what is still to come.

      • #105594

        What’s stopping me?

        Upsetting my children
        That I’m just as horrible as him and have caused him distress too
        I spend so long analysing it all perhaps I’ve made it out to be worse than it is
        What if it’s me so no one else will love me again
        Finding a place for us that I can afford on my own (private rent)

    • #105592

      My reasons are ones I’m probably ashamed of.
      I know without him I’ll be alone in a gutter
      I think I love him.
      There are good times
      And I’m scared in case iv got it wrong and it is indeed me.
      That’s about it

      • #114458

        Principally fear of missing him, the good times, the sexual intimacy that no other man has shown me. Sexually he is pure heroin to me. I struggle to believe I will ever feel so keenly about another man again. The last time I felt this kind of draw to a man, it was (detail removed by Moderator) years ago, he messed me up big time and it took me years to get over him. Fear of facing that heartbreak and him showing another woman the sexual passion he has shown me. Fear of recognising he can just move on and find another woman within days. Fear of being alone and starting all over and having nobody to keep the loneliness at bay.

      • #114461

        I can totally relate to that one. I had that years ago with one. Only recently realised he was also an abuser. Unfortunately in finally getting over him I walked right into the arms of someone who was the complete opposite and no sexual heroin in sight… Don’t be me!! Watch out for that too. All of it is about power and control. Very very hard to shake it though, be strong, maybe research and read a bit more about this type of hook? The Covert Passive Aggressive N********t has an interesting chapter on sex as control. Sending you strength. In the end it was him having an affair and totally rejecting me and getting another woman pregnant that made me “move on” but I honestly not sure I had really until very recently when I realised he had been an abuser too. xx

      • #114473

        I can relate to this. How much of it is our reactivity, as they would have us believe?

        I don’t believe we are the problem. I believe are choices lead us to people who trigger childhood wounds in us. We go for people who, consciously or unconsciously, remind us of a significant caregiver when we were younger. More often than not we are attracted to the person with whom we had the greatest difficulty and so we seek to redress the wound in the here and now. It almost always fails.

        I’m scared of always being attracted to an abuser. My husband was physically present but emotionally unavailable. Cold, emotionally abandoned me when my Dad died, when our son was born, was silent, lived in a world of drink and silence, then found out he was cheating. His mother abandoned him and his brother age (detail removed by Moderator). Probably a misogynist, never trusted women, got in there first by marrying me but keeping me at bay. No true love or connection at all, just co-dependency.

        Same with bf now. The question is how do we stop being attracted to those who are bad for us? No matter how familiar or enticing they may feel at the start. I’ve had therapy for 20+ years but still end up making sh*tty decisions time and time again. I seem not to learn. And by learn I mean heal.

    • #105597

      What a brilliant idea for a thread
      My reasons
      What if I am wrong and it’s all me .. as I am not a great cook etc and he is so amazing at everything ( which I hate to say he is )

      I have a beautiful home which we have spent years building , not sure if I want to leave it and can’t afford to keep it on my own

      Dealing with him after break up and coping with all the emotions of breaking up don’t think I have the strength

      He has always taken over everything which makes me feel I can’t do it Ll on my own .. running house , food shopping , looking after children , sorting out car problems

      Will I ever meet anyone else and what if all men are the same .. then I left my marriage for nothing

    • #105598

      A voice from the other side…..

      It’s just stuff and at the end of the day your life and sanity is more important.

      Yes, you’ll feel guilty. In fact when the nice guy stuff starts you’ll be so confused you just want the world to stop so you can get off. But then you read your diary or a woman posts on here and you recognise everything thing she says…..you remember why you had to leave.

      Your children – a tough one but as grown ups they have to work through that one. They will have grown up seeing his behaviour. It’s a bitter pill I had to swallow but I needed to leave if they wanted a mum left in this world.

      You are worth so much more. You will not end up in the gutter. You have been programmed to believe that without him you are nothing and that no-one will love you like he does (well, thank god for that one!)

      If you reach out there is help. You may not have a family home anymore if you have no entitlement to the home but you can rebuild your life. (I am talking from experience here).

      Many of us stuck it out for half (+) our lives…….do you really want to have to rely on this man in your final years?

      This might sound a bit harsh and I really don’t mean it to…..what I’m trying to say is once you’ve done it, you wonder why it took you so long.

      There’s solicitors to advise you of your rights, support workers to guide you and health professionals to help you heal. There’s amazing women who will pick you up when you fall, validate you when you doubt and cheer with you when you have a win.

      As KIP will tell you…..ducks in a row, baby steps and no contact (I’m still practicing that one!)

      There is always an answer to a problem….. therefore it’s no longer a problem 😉

      • #109618

        I know you wrote this a while ago but it is a brilliant reply. X

    • #105647

      Adding to the list….
      This has thrown up new hurdles
      How and when to physically leave the house with a bag, kids, dogs?
      How to do this with no support? I don’t have any family. I have friends but they’re all dealing with their own things during this time and haven’t been supporting me or checking in. I feel very alone.
      To survive long term I need to find a job – not a good time to be job hunting, and have won’t have childcare so can’t work if I leave now, so is it better to wait until schools go back and I have a job?
      Occupation Order – is there any point? He’s not working, he has no money, and nowhere to go because of lockdown, the solicitor said they could segregate the house to areas and times where we each can use the kitchen/bathroom…and that would be worse.
      I couldn’t manage the mortgage on my own, without a job, so do I want to take on that responsibility when there’s about to be a worldwide recession? If I don’t then I lose mine and my children’s home. It is our only stability.

    • #105698

      This is brilliant
      It’s so good to see I’m not alone in my worties…. there has to be a pattern to what we are going through, and why just leaving isn’t easy


    • #105718
      Wants To Help

      There’s absolutely a pattern to this Lowkey, it’s called The Cycle of Abuse. If you’re not aware of it please research it and read up on it. It will help you to understand his next move.

    • #105823

      Bumping 💐

    • #105861

      Guilt has the biggest hurdle that’s stopped me leaving in the past. Yes, the kids as well of course but that’s all surrounded with guilt!

      BUT I’m going.. I do feel guilty, bad, hurt and lost – even confused. I keep questioning my decision BUT I’m still going … (detail removed by moderator)

    • #105868

      The going is always sooo very difficult. It’s a world all in and of itself. Like trying to get out backwards when in a wormhole, that’s ever spinning.

      I had a couple of very short stints early on in life with two abusers. I got out very quickly actually. The last one lasted for (detail removed by moderator). He was extremely good at what he did. I was very codependent in many ways. He adapted himself perfectly to me in so many ways in order to keep me financially supporting him. He has a very high I.Q. and very well read about manipulation actually. We had really good talks, etc. It was hard for me to see, really was. But once I did, that was it. In all three situations I just up and left. Slammed the hammer down on the table and pretty much lost everything. Didn’t care. My sanity and wellbeing was more important to me than things.

      Hard? Yep. It was. Consequences bite. But consequences and the price I would have paid staying with him, uh, no wasn’t going to go down that path. Life is so short. And we are the driver in our bus, we really are. Had to forgive myself for wrong choices and say well that’s it then, let’s get this party started because the middle of the road really isn’t there. It’s an illusion. You are either going forwards or backwards, always moving.

      Guilty? LOL! No, I was delivered of that one. I had it a wee bit but got over it pretty fast. I’m not responsible for who that other person – is. I have too much on my back already, no room for another big bag. I know what codependency is and I have to fight it like everyone else. Love the phrase – not my monkeys, not my circus. I am responsible for my own life. And that matters. It has to matter for you as well. So what, we stepped in it. No one is immune to these manipulators and my last one was an expert at it.

      We don’t make anyone do anything and especially when it comes to a master manipulator and abuser. They wrote the handbook on that one and they are responsible for their actions. I’m not. They make fullblown choices to do what they do with no empathy whatsoever and you’re just supposed to enjoy the ride. They are.

      Kids don’t understand and their brains as far as logic and reasoning is concerned doesn’t even fully develop until in their mid 20’s. They don’t really know how these people work and they are usually pawns in the abuser’s game. Oh let’s blame it on your mother, it’s all her fault, see how she is? I’m the nice one, she is crazy, etc. blah, blah. The longer you stay, the worse it gets for them. They need to see something different in their lives so they have something to compare things to and then they make their own decisions. We aren’t responsible for that either when they get to be adults.

      Being hurt, lost, confused and guilty are ALL symptoms of a very huge problem and of a malady going on in your psyche. It means you’ve been bitten and you’re infected. It works for your host because it means now you will be more pliable food for them. Their prey. It works. They keep doing it because it does. We don’t have to provide that for them, though do we?

      • #114460

        @Anonymous your posts are brilliant and so on the money. They way they manipulate little children (my boy is in awe of him) and they don’t understand gas lighting, crazy making, codependency…how can they? They can only understand what is modelled.

        I have become increasingly angry at the thought that when I am alone with my son, we have such balance, harmony. He experiences trust, honesty, integrity. I hate myself more than anything for having such poor boundaries that I let this low life into my world and convince me, on some empty well broken child basis that I must work to gain his love and approval. Fight against the s**t shaming and “prove” myself to a man, to whom I owe absolutely NOTHING. My late father used to say “if somebody takes more from your life than they give, cut them loose..”

        He was right. The abuser’s response? “(detail removed by Moderator)”

        I mean, I have no words for my own stupidity and weakness not to stand up to him more. He really must think I am the weakest human on the planet.

        Bt yes, I think we also stay to seek some form of validation that they see us. That our ego investment hasn’t all been for nothing. That, at some level, we matter as humans.

        WE can only give ourselves that validation.

      • #114462

        You know what? It’s the opposite!! I think he probably thinks you’re the strongest person he knows! That’s why they continue, that’s how they get their supply, they suck your energy and positive aspects to big up themselves. I’ll put money on the fact that the things that he used to “love” about you are the things he now criticises the most? Have you looked at the book list? There are some really good books on there. A good start is Lundy Bancroft “Why Does he Do that?” and Healing from Hidden Abuse is another good one. xx

      • #114465

        Funnily enough yes, he has started saying I have too much to say, but the blame shifting and projection is astounding. Apparently it is me who starts all the arguments. We would “be fine if YOU just stop YOUR s**t”. Coming from a guy who accuses me of “snaking” him by going to (detail removed by Moderator) and “chatting to people and getting numbers..” Then rants down the phone and hangs up, blocks me, calls me (detail removed by Moderator)

        The blame and insanity are something else. Then, when I stand up to him, he says “(detail removed by Moderator)”

        His ex (whom he called the love of his life to me) was also an “evil b***h” too.

        The more I type this the angrier it makes me!

      • #114469

        Lundy Bancroft is brilliant and I have his book. I need to understand more the sexual addiction piece and why I am so scared of letting this parasitic waste go. I know that if he finds another women whom he really likes, he will submit her to the same abuse so why does it scare us to let these men go?

    • #105870

      Regarding guilt, one thing I forgot to add is that – isn’t it interesting that you never see them wear any guilt for anything? How does that happen? And yet, you, are piled high with it, finding it hard to carry around. Hm,m,m…. They say, I didn’t do anything here, it was Her!! Wow, then you’re quite the manipulator, genius, plotter and schemer then all the way around here to have accomplished the reason for all this guilt. Your crimes are sky high then! Not true though, is it?

      No, no, they train their prey early on to be the scapegoat for everything and then it becomes a pattern in our thinking. We just go there all by ourselves. Their work is done! They push the button and we assume the position of being the guilty one. Eh, we can pull the plug on that one.

      Alot of our guilt is no more than, we were ignorant. We made choices because we didn’t know who they really were and how it would all play out. That’s really not something to be guilty for however. It’s something to correct. Now if you walk out into traffic and know that the cars are going to hit you, that’s a different story or if you plan and execute something knowing you are going to hurt people, then you’re a predator and they don’t feel guilt anyways so it’s a mute point.

      You’ve been trained and conditioned to carry their guilt and maybe alot of other people’s guilt in your life. Just something to think about because like I said, you can pull that plug right out of the wall if you want to.

      • #114470

        @ Anonymous. Very true. The one thing missing, consistently, is guilt for what they do. Mine won’t even bother saying sorry now unless he is asked and even then he just shows indifference. Oh how the mask slips and when they’re no longer getting their supply, they turn on you in a flash.

    • #105880

      Cycle of Abuse question
      Making it harder to justify leaving as he’s being sort of alright now. He hasn’t been for a long long time, years I’d say, but it came to a head, as I was getting my ducks in a row, unfortunately they weren’t all there, one was still bobbing around. There hasn’t been any make up or sorry, or anything, its just not as bad as it was…it’s still there, subtly…

      As a nice person, this is making it harder to justify leaving. What is that about? I don’t love this person. Not. At. All. He has caused so much pain, I just want out. But because I’m a decent human being I’m now thinking it doesn’t seem fair on him (W*F?! Excuse my language!), he won’t understand, walking when there’s no incident, how can I do that? Does anyone know the answers to this? I don’t love him, I don’t like him, I have zero respect for him and for what he has done to me and the kids. But I am an empath and I don’t like hurting people…

      Don’t get me wrong, I’m going, I’m made up on that, but even the solicitor said that it would make it harder now he’s stopped most of the behaviour, for a few weeks, she said it would be a lot easier if he was physical with me, even the police 101 woman said the same…This depresses me….And now I’m reading the This is My Abuser post on here..I’m even thinking, he’s not half as bad as most…especially with the sexual aspects..SO, is it STILL abuse, will I be believed in a Family Court? This is the one thing holding me back. If it all goes pear-shaped and I’m out on my ear, homeless, losing everything.
      Anyone explain this muddled thinking? thank you x

    • #105883
      Wants To Help

      @iliketea Domestic Abuse is rife in society and the recent Covid-19 issues have brought it to a head big time. However, DA is not the only reason to leave a relationship. If the relationship is not working for you any more, you do not love him, you are not happy with him, you have every right to end it. Most relationships do not end mutually, so someone is always likely to get hurt. But we cannot continue to hurt ourselves just so that we don’t hurt anyone else. We cannot sacrifice our lives and happiness for someone else’s; if we do, in reality, neither party will really be happy because one party is not 100% invested, so the other party is bound to pick up on that. The kindest thing you can do for yourself is to leave. If you do care about him and want to consider him in some way, the kindest thing you can do for him is to leave. If you really don’t love him, free him up for someone who can! (If you have to tell yourself that just to alleviate your conscience then please do so!)

      The abuse may not be ‘that bad’ at the moment, or you may have got immune to some of it. I know I did. But it will be the abuse from the past that has slowly eroded away your feelings and love for him.

      If you can’t leave him during this period of niceness, you may have to wait for the next episode of abuse. Not sure if you saw my post about the Domestic Abuse Pyramid From Denial To Recovery, but you are on the verge of going from Realisation to Flight right now. I think it’s just going to take something else to happen to give you that final nudge.

    • #105884

      @WantsToHelp I think its partly because I have to wait a while yet for an other reason so its making me question the how, but it will happen, i’m certain, I’m not really talking about not going, I’m going, its more thinking through the how to go, whens the right moment. Its a maze. I know it will happen. Just interesting the brain and how it works in the Cycle of Abuse, because I know where I am, and that it is, and I know it is abuse, I have an IDVA it must be! The police have a marker on the house and my mobile. I know it is, and I know I’ve got to get out. This is very clever psychological abuse so its harder to pinpoint, harder to explain, and he’s a master of disguise in front of others… I need my ducks cemented into the ground before I make a move. So it is permanent. Is the only way with this one. Yes i did see the pyramid, really liked that, it resonated. I’m just about to board, I’ve got my ticket, Im going up the steps, putting on my belt…then off..up up and AWAY!!

    • #105885

      It’s so typical what you speak of here. Seen it so many times it makes me almost snore now. Right, right and this is the next tactic, right on que, eh? It’s all to keep you off balance. Make you go “wait a minute, hold on here!” Bleech.

      Boring, tiresome, lame and annoying. Part of being an empath (I am one) is to get strong in your ability to perceive what’s what when it’s happening. If you don’t, you are going to experience intense pain in life.

      We are intuitive and we are sponges so we have to have good armor on and we have to have skills. This guy is textbook, what he is doing. But because you are still connected to him personally and haven’t totally cut all poisonous vines from him to you, you still get all that yuch into your mind and heart straight from him to you.

      You still question but what if and why not and was it my fault and all that. I know you do. It’s obvious. But you have to pull all that up right by it’s roots. It’s total BS and it will follow you and poison you still so up it comes!

      Being nice to a predator and a person with no conscience gets alot of people dead so we can’t walk around with our gifts and not be a good warrior. I mean we can but we’re going to get the c**p kicked out of us doing so. You gotta train. You gotta be good at what you do. Being an empath with no skills at being a warrior is like walking into gang territory with alot of free stuff. Will you walk out alive? Probably not.

      You can’t pet the mad dog because you thought it was nice initially and not expect it to turn on you. It’s a mad dog. That’s what they do.

      Don’t care how charming someone can be, don’t care about their pity parties either or their sob stories. Didn’t take them to raise and if they can put sooo much energy into charming and playing me, I think they could put that energy into taking care of themselves, right?

      Do not even drop your head here and get off your game. Don’t you do it. Suck in your empathy, he’s not worth, spend it on yourself and those who really deserve it. Muddled thinking will pass, you just have to get away from the source of the poison.

    • #106065

      Important Documents to Gather Prior to Leaving Your Abuser:

      All bank account numbers, credit cards, and retirement information
      Copies of outstanding loans, amount of monthly payments, current budget
      Joint and individual credit cards with balances. Get your name removed from joint cards if possible
      Pay stubs for at least 2 months
      Extra key for the safe deposit box
      Copies of your car title(s)
      The past 3 years’ worth of income tax returns
      Deeds to joint or individual property
      Copies of your and the abuser’s signature cards at the bank, CDs, and bonds
      Copy of any Personal Protection Order (PPO) – if one is in place
      Copies of all insurance policies, wills, trust funds, or pension fund information
      Abuser’s National Insurance No., driver’s license number, work address and number
      Addresses and phone numbers of friends; criminal history; license plate number, and recent pictures
      Unless an attorney advises you not to, if you leave, take all personal assets and half of all joint assets (for example, bonds, saving accounts, checking account, credit card)

      Computer Safety:

      Most computer browsers (Google, Firefox, Safari, AOL, Microsoft Edge) track the pages that you visit when you are online, so you should clear your “cashe” after every time you use it. Learn more about erasing your browsing history.
      You are safest on a computer outside your home. Try your local library or college for access to free computers
      Be cautious with what you say in emails, texts, and messages. Your abuser may be able to access your account.
      Expect that everyone – even your abuser – will find out about your social media accounts. Close your social media accounts.
      Remove all information about yourself from online, including old blogs, old social media accounts, and email accounts.
      Make sure that your Twitter account is not set to tweet out your location.

      If you can’t delete certain pages of personal information, contact the “webmaster” or “host” of the site and explain why you need your information taken down
      Delete the Facebook App off your mobile device, tablet, and computer – this site frequently “follows you” around and you ex may be able to track you through it. Here’s how to remove your Facebook page.
      Change usernames and passwords for all accounts frequently and do not write them down. Change them into nonsensical series of numbers, symbols, and letters. Even if you believe that your abuser doesn’t have access to them, there are keylogging programs that can easily determine that information.
      Disconnect GPS from you phone, computer, and tablets. Learn how to disable geo-tagging on your smartphone.
      If you use a computer-based email program like Outlook, Outlook Express, Eudora or Apple Mail, anybody who has access to your computer can read your email.
      Make certain that your computer does not “save” your email address and/or password and make certain to log out of your email each and every time you are finished using it.
      Be mindful of what you buy and where you buy it from – you don’t want to be tracked.

      Phone Safety:

      Use landlines rather than cordless telephones, if you are able to find one as corded phones are harder to tap.
      Use a prepaid phone card or call collect so that the charges don’t appear on your phone bill.
      Obtain a new cellphone before you leave if possible – you want to make sure your phone is in no way connected to your partner.
      Check your cellphone settings – as there are a large number of social media site and other technologies that your abuser can use to listen to your calls or track your location, even if you do not answer the phone.
      Get your own cell phone that your abuser doesn’t know about. If you are purchasing a pay-as-you-go plan, pay cash so it cannot be connected to you
      Set a lock code onto your phone or use fingerprint sensing technology to ensure that no one can access your phone
      Turn off “Locate My Phone” if your phone has this
      Turn off the GPS on your phone and leave it on E-911
      Log yourself out of any apps you’re not using and consider deleting apps off your phone that show your location (Facebook, for example)
      Turn off Bluetooth when you’re not using it
      If you had to bring your old phone with you, when you’re not using your cellphone, take out the battery and wrap it in tinfoil, however the minute it powers on, it will signal your location if someone is watching it.

    • #106087

      What prevents me leaving:
      Never have enough time on my own to plan it!
      Fear-don’t know where he would be how he is feeling and if he was planning to do anything to me
      Losing my job-he hates my job and it is the first thing to be thrown up-I will lose you your
      precious job.
      being followed, stalked, harassed-of course I won’t know this until I leave.
      Him turning up at work and humiliating me

      Guilt-Blame myself for making him treat me like **** and guilt for my own behaviour as I tend to
      retaliate and stick up for myself instead of keeping my head down and mouth shut.
      He can be nice when he wants, though it rarely lasts long.
      Feel devious planning behind his back and that I would hurt his feelings(yes really!)
      He had traumatic time as child and I know this has shaped him as to who he is today.

      Financial-We own house with mortgage, but he considers it his house not ours-would never leave for me.
      Would be locked in a financial battle for ever with him not playing ball and causing general
      agro-wold cost me tens of thousands.

      Don’t honestly know. Can say that I know for definite i will never fix him and he will never change and it used to be that I just wanted things to be ok. I now know that will never be the case, there will always be some excuse for his behaviour, he is not a nice person generally and thrives on conflict and agro.

    • #106205

      Fear of the unknown. Devil you know…
      Things helter-skeltering out of my control.
      Legal system and court.

    • #106297

      What’s stopping me:
      I love him – it’s not all bad we have many good times together and great memories. when it’s good it’s really good.
      Daughter – I don’t want her growing up with parents separated. I’ve seen what it’s done to my husband and I would hate for her to go through it.
      told you so – my family always knew he wasnt good enough for me and have made the point many times. As a result our relationship isn’t great. They dont know about the DV but the thought of me leaving and them saying I told you so is just shameful and embarrassing and I just feel stupid.
      lonely – I dont feel I have anyone to go to. I cant go to my family as per above. We have the same circle of friends and I dont want them knowing the real truth
      financially – we both have good jobs a home we are doing up. Financially we are strong together and I just dont know how I will support myself my daughter if we divorced
      will he be ok – if I left it would absolutely break him. I think I would probably just about cope. But I fear for his mental well being. I dont think he will be ok and maybe its “safer” i stay for his sanity.
      marriage is forever – as silly as it is from a young age I’ve always had in my head if you marry someone its forever there is no going back. you have committed to them no matter when things are going wrong you have to stay and work through it.

    • #106300

      And yet you are here Wishingwell… If you stay, will it absolutely break “you”? What about “your” wellbeing? Have you ever read anything about codependency? It’s basically when we think about someone else’s needs, wants, desires over our own, they always come first. I see alot of that in what you just wrote…

      Sometimes we live our lives as a martyr and we become a product of that….so do our children. We think they are better off being exposed to us never really being happy as if that doesn’t matter, they learn by observation, they don’t miss much. They learn Life is about denial, self deprivation and being a sacrificial lamb. My stepmother did that. She lived for the “good times” which really were few in number. He was very manipulative and abusive, covert or overt, was a master at it. Could charm you like no one else. He trained her to care about how everything felt to “him”, she catered to him and he slowly destroyed her from the inside out. At his funeral she was telling everyone he was the love of her life… I wasn’t there but heard. It’s a good thing I didn’t hear that one myself. I lost respect for her a long time ago. She put his needs above me, too. We looked great from the outside but the inside was rotten.

      I was a product of the patriarchal rule where you make a mistake by marrying someone but you just have to live in it. You’re a woman so you’re not allowed to do anything else but smile and nod. All the women around me did that around me growing up and I saw how very twisted their lives were. They made endless excuses for their men, they learned how to cope by being very passive aggressive since an outright frontal complaint wouldn’t go down well, they learned how to be covert, too. And their sons learned treating a woman a certain way was just fine and the daughters learned it’s never ok to really be honest.

      What about you sweetheart? What would it look like if you put you first? Would you feel guilty if you did?

    • #106303

      Fear of losing my kids
      Guilt, I thought If I loved him enough it would all be ok but it wasn’t. Thought If we had kids it would all be ok but it wasn’t . Guilt that my kids hear how he talks but guilty if I split up the family
      I’m not scared of being alone, I wouldn’t want this again but just can’t find the strength to walk away

      • #106390

        Bumping up for advice⬆️

    • #106391

      Bumping up again ⬆️

    • #106393

      And again⬆️

    • #108964


    • #108968

      I read through this all again and see two prominent things – fear and guilt. Which really are two things that come straight from these men to control and cripple their prey. It’s interesting to note that our fear of the unknown as far as actually leaving is far greater than the fear of staying in abuse. The drip drip drip of the water torture by staying is something we have become accustomed to so we really can’t see or understand the horrific danger there is by staying. We’re used to it. It’s familiar, so it almost kinda sorta feels safe. It’s not.

      Then the guilt. Ah yes, that one is fun. And as long as we stick to their plan and their programming that says – because you married me or with me – we are connected at the hip as if the same person. Meaning that you no longer have any autonomy, you’re just an extension of me, the place I can dump whatever guilt I should be having and had all along onto you. That’s one thing you’re good for, right? Wrong.

      We keep looking for that pay out, that reward, that turn around in the road whereby all our efforts, faith, trust, belief will somehow produce what we want……we keep looking for that and sadly after so much time and evidence of it not happening we then come to a totally wrong conclusion that – we’ve failed.

      Not true. It was an impossible task to begin with. It was never ever going to happen. Never had anything to do with you. This person was never a true partner to begin with. We can be wrong about our illusion. They are experts at it. Failure would be – staying in it. So we have to cut away this thing that says – I am an appendage of him. You are an entirely different person and being good enough for him obviously meant losing your own personhood and morphing into him. Your guilt needs to be more about what all of the abuse is doing to “you” instead of how it’s going to affect him or anyone else if you say No to abuse.

      By saying yes to getting out of abuse – it’s amazing the effect it has on fear and guilt as you snip those tenacles away from yourself that come straight from him in the first place and dare to believe in a different reality for yourself.

    • #109011
      Wants To Help

      I’ve just come back from the cinema and watched a film called Black Water:Abyss. It’s one of those on-the-edge-of-your-seat films where both scenarios the people are faced with are horrendous.

      Basically, a group of five people go caving underground in the middle of nowhere and don’t tell anyone. They then get trapped around an underground pool with a massive killer crocodile. The cave gets flooded and they are left with two options: remain there, hope for the best, but die, or take the chance of swimming across the pool and get out, or die trying.

      The film really made you realise that the options were horrendous either way, and in typical film style, not everyone survived.

      To leave an abuser or not to leave an abuser? – that is the question. Sadly some ladies do stay and die, and some die trying to leave, but the ‘dying’ I am referring to for most of us is that feeling of being dead inside. We know if we stay in that cave then we are devoiding ourselves of a life of fulfilment and enjoyment.

      You know what will happen if you stay. You don’t know for sure what will happen if you leave. Only you can make that choice.

    • #109602

      Bumping xx

    • #110149

      What a great post!

      I have been through so many emotions and stages, can completely relate to the feelings of guilt that some of you have been experiencing, as have been there and it stalled me for quite some time, especially when he was being nice- that really confused me. Now I see right through it and accepting everything for what it is now and just focusing on my and my little one’s future and getting out asap.

      Whats stopping me now..

      I am ready BUT only on my terms which I am being advised against.

      I have decided to stay in the same area for the moment and one day when I can afford to move, I will. (My support worker agrees this is the best plan) I have more support finding a home if I stay (which obviously he doesn’t know about) but my issue is when that opportunity comes up, I can’t get out or I can but then he will just find me, pick up the child and not return to me. So I need to arrange a temporary court order for child contact. But for this I need to flee for a short time whilst I wait for the court hearing. I have this crazy idea (is it really that crazy?) to stay during this process as this is what he wants – full custody and agreement for child care to be decided by the courts. So surely he can’t be much worse than he currently is and it will take a matter of weeks (controlling, manipulative)

      Why don’t I want to flee? Well why should I leave all my possessions and my life. I have been trying to pack but its taken longer than expected and I am running out of time (I have an excuse to pack which he is not suspicious of). Plus the money, how am I going to afford to live with my little one whilst in temporary accommodation, how is my little one going to cope, how am I going to afford to pay the final bills of my current place at the same time, as it is all under my name and joint tenancy.

    • #111256

      @daisyfairydust for you. xx

    • #111267

      Great post. It helps to know that what you describe has a basis in biological dependency caused by years of abuse and trauma, and this, combined with fear, obligation and guilt, means it is notoriously hard to break free. Please don’t compare your situations to others, because all abuse is abuse, even if it is invisible to those around you. It has been pointed out to me recently that all those years I stayed despite the horrible treatment, I was essentially saying, “I don’t matter. I have no value and no worth. I don’t respect myself. I don’t love myself. I don’t deserve to be cherished, loved, respected, validated and understood.” So, I was essentially abusing myself! If you don’t love, respect, value and have self worth how can you expect anyone else to value you? I know I didn’t. If that sounds harsh, I stress that it is not the same as being guilty, or being blamed or saying it was my fault, it wasn’t, it was just that I let down my boundaries and was in denial. I just blanked out the moments when I was terrified, ashamed, shut out, yelled at, ignored, shoved etc. I focussed on the make up afterwards, the crumbs of affection, the small acts of kindness, and stayed for at least (detail removed by moderator) too long! In the end, he discarded me in a horrible and extreme way and it all fell apart during lockdown anyway! If that hadn’t happened would I still be in the relationship? Probably. My advice? Practise putting yourself first, your wants, needs, desires, ambitions and see what happens. Write stuff down. Try and detach emotionally. Get the facts about your money, your rights, your legal situation, act calm around your kids, give them your strength so that they build their trust and confidence in you and stop seeing you as a victim. What would you tell a friend? What would you tell the person you love most in the world to do? I wish I had been my own best friend but I neglected myself. Never again.

    • #111276

      Thank you for this, this post really has changed my perspective, thank you

    • #111349

      My reasons are him taken our child even though he has no interest in him and it could be harmful, dealing with the property we have and everytime i get brave enough to leave he me makes me feel so guilty by saying I hate him and that he loves me and will have nothing

    • #111671

      He keeps turning it round on me and making false allegations to have my child taken away. I know i have never done anything wrong but I think any mum whose child is her whole world would be worried with threats like that.

    • #111687

      Financial mostly, as our house is jointly owned and paid for, he announced after the last child left home that he’d come and go as he pleases, and we wouldn’t be going on holiday together, or out for any kind of date night ever again. Pretty much he’s stuck to that and over time I’ve built up my own interests, but pretty much they’ve all gone at present due to COVID-19.

      He’s got no intention of moving out because it’s cheap accommodation, and I don’t feel I can do that and leave him in charge of my biggest asset.
      He’s also stopped most of the worst behaviour recently so not easy to get him removed.

      I don’t have anywhere to go without running down my savings in rent, I’m semi retired so can’t recover financially from the fallout of court costs as well.
      I’d rather give that money to my son as he needs a bigger house in a better area for my grandson.
      I want to see my grandson so I can’t disappear completely.
      I like my job, a lot of my identity is connected to it but I work in public spaces so he’d know where to find me.
      He’s more than capable of plotting revenge, I get told stories of how he’s waited years to do that to other ppl but succeeded eventually.

      He’s done so much bad stuff to me I have no feelings of affection or guilt at all, I do think it’s possible to meet someone else but I’d worry he’d try and hurt them physically, he has a criminal record for that.
      I can’t see a way out at all just now, but I’d like to leave.

      • #111784

        123cali I feel like you my partner says he will keep our son no one will ever take him from him…my son is my life and I know no one will ever take him but it kills me even thinking of putting my son in the middle of a bad break up seems too much xx

    • #111718

      I guess for me it was fear? Fear of leaving him? I have no idea why… I already was supporting myself financially, I already took care of all the child care and house keeping… he didn’t really offer emotional support either!

      Maybe it was habit! After so long together! I still don’t exactly know why it’s taken so long to get to this stage!
      When we met I was shy, unsure of myself and reserved but somehow even through all the pain and heartbreak I’ve endured in his ‘care’ and company I’ve ended up stronger, more confident and more outspoken than before and for that I am grateful!

    • #111737

      Several things really…

      He had nowhere to go. Although I know it is not my responsibility to house him, making someone homeless is a really hard thing to do.

      Fear of reprisals. He made several false allegations to the police about me – I was even arrested once – and it worried me that one day something would stick. he also promised to get me sacked from my job and to ruin my career.

      Our pets. I didn’t want him claiming them. I knew he would, although he had no home and no job.

      Love. I never stopped believing he would get sober.

      Shame. As a 50 something successful career woman, I felt massively stupid that everyone would know that I was living with a man who treated me so badly.

      Dreams. Facing facts killed all the dreams I’d had of an idyllic life with him.

    • #111836

      my heart is beating fast as i read all of these reasons, i cant tell how much i feel the same, specially with the play nice and charm that does not last and feeling hurt and starting to blame myself and something is wrong with me. I am going to cry as i can not no see what i can see and this makes things harder.

      I am scared of leaving and what is going to happen to me and my baby, i have no one here, no money and no job at the moment and also i am not British.

      I am scared of his retaliations and what he is going to do, mainly worried what if he make a case and get my baby from me

      also he is around all the time and no time to get away from him

      and finally where to go?

      You can see I am full of fear and hurt, it is hard.

      Thank you for the post and the replies.

    • #111841

      It sounds like most of us have the same reasons – guilt and fear. My children are my main concern, my younger 2 idolise their Dad but my eldest hates him because he is treated differently. His Dad is vile to him, swears at him all the time and is emotionally abusive to him. We argue all the time and tonight I have told him to leave but he refuses. If I leave I have to take the children because I fear he would turn them against me. I couldn’t live without them. I sit in my room most evenings crying and feel so lonely. None of my friends know the full extent of the situation, one knows a bit but she is busy with her own life. I put a mask on it and to be honest when I’m with my friends I am so happy but when we are alone together I am miserable and walk on eggshells. I hate my life and what I have become. I feel weak but empowered to protect my children. I just don’t know where to begin.

    • #112280

      Hi Giem

      You have already began, you’re here and this is the best start, the best education I have received and the best support.
      I know that know one would know what’s happening behind the close door when the abuser is so charming, I know that and I know how lonely and sad it is when you realise that is our own not fault but doing. Because we wanted to save our family. I never said anything to a friend or neighbours and if they said anything about him I f made excuses for him out a smiley face on myself, even to my midwife and GP. It’s also because ٹھٹہ what I wanted to belive that he is great, but he is surely not and he is a abuser and have been. Nothing has changed but my wound got deeper and I just can’t take it anymore and once I opened I can’t go back anymore, can not not see his games abd his mental tourcher and that’s when you really begin to do something. I think that’s where you are.
      All the best, and stay strong and keep moving.

    • #112308

      This post by I like tea is very important to all the new arrivals to this forum who are being abused and looking for help. I am in recovery now, I had to flee during lockdown, and am going through rollercoasters as my mind accepts that he did indeed do all the things he did intentionally. Even daily “small” things like not responding to me, ignoring me emotionally, never praising me, ever, in between the abuse. I have very good reason to believe now that he was poisoning me as well. I lived in a permanent state of fear, terror, with my brain saying run!get out!” And my stupid self saying oh no, no one could be that bad, he really doesn’t mean it, must be me. It took years. Avoid wasting your life like I did, and take all the advice here. Know they are very conscious and deliberate in being nice or what ever, and you are being manipulated to sustain the abuse.

    • #112333

      I was looking for this post earlier and couldn’t find it so I am really glad it’s popped up on page 1 again. Good to see you @Cecile and to hear you are thriving and going from strength to strength.

      I was looking earlier because I want to know WHY I can’t leave. I don’t want to stay in this marriage but I cannot leave. The red line needs to come, I suppose, but meanwhile the drip dripping continues.

      I have the horrible situation which is rather perverse and I can’t really get my head round. I think my (semi-adult) kids are speaking with their feet and don’t want to be at home as the atmosphere is horrible and their father, in particular, is not terribly pleasant to be around. And yet they see it as my responsibility to try to create a happy atmosphere, which of course is out of my hands. I grey rock all the time, we don’t fight, he just gets angry. Sometimes I say something in my own defence, or even just answer a question wrong, and the kids see this as me antagonising him. It’s so horrible that they have become conditioned to believe that things are my fault, too.
      And yet, while I try to protect my children (still) by sticking up for them, by putting myself between them and him, they see that this is me making him cross and creating an atmosphere.

      So… rock and a hard place. If (WHEN) I leave they will see me as the deserter, the homebreaker. And yet actually I shall be giving them an out from the vile toxic family environment from which I have tried but failed to protect them for many years.

      Yes, probably falls under the “guilt” heading.

      I hate myself for not just leaving. Hate myself.

    • #112334

      I so get the guilt. My husband is currently in a (detail removed by moderator), no work etc But and it’s a big but, I am now able to ignore the guilt most of the time because he has made choices which have led to his situation
      He chooses to drink,he chose to not work, he chose to lie to me, he chose to throw our marriage away by ignoring my unhappiness. So now I choose me.

    • #113416
    • #113793
      Scottish Thistle

      Although I have left my husband – it took a long time to do. The reason I stuck around was I was scared to be on my own I had never been on my own as we got together in our early twenties, he was all I knew. Didn’t think I would find anyone or that anyone else would want me. Before leaving I realised I would rather be alone for the rest of my life than be in a relationship 20 years down the line wishing I had done things with my life.

      I was also ashamed to become a divorcee – be seen as someone who couldn’t keep a hold of her husband and because of religious beliefs that I had failed myself and my family.

      Worried about what people would think and that they would never believe my side of what happened and just assume I gave up on my marriage which definitely wasn’t the case.

      Felt guilty, sad and responsible for him too as he comes from a very dysfunctional family and that he would have nobody there for him if he needed help – the more love and help I gave him the more hurt he caused me through drinking, hurtful words and actions. Looking back it was more a one sided marriage I gave he took and never reciprocated when I needed him.

      He’s made his bed now he can lie in it. No time is a right time too leave.

    • #113816

      I’m finding it so frustrating at the moment that it seems impossible to get even a very short interview with a solicitor to check my legal position without paying out a small fortune.
      It’s not complex as my children are grown up.

      Women’s Rights seem forever busy on their helpline etc and it seems soooo unfair that our GP is constantly chasing HIM with health education and advice On his medical issues (which he never takes) but I struggle to get help.

      Seems a little rough when how he is is not my fault.

      It would be awful to leave only to find you haven’t understood the legal side of it and get ripped off, this concerns me a lot as I’m not young enough to start from scratch.

    • #113819

      Have you looked at the Help Pages and attached documents on Rights of Women? They seem quite comprehensive for all sorts of situations. Are you able to post your questions here without giving too much away? Or on Facebook find a relevant group where you can post anonymously?

    • #113857

      What’s stopping me? This is a question I ask myself over and over as I become increasingly desperate. Why don’t I just go? And I think the answer has whittled down to one thing now… I am afraid of The Fight. Of the conversation that will take place when I tell him, whatever it is that I’m going to tell him, whichever words I’m going to use. He is such a master manipulator that I cannot, absolutely cannot, leave any room for discussion. Well, ha! “Discussion” is a funny word to use. Persuasion, reasoning… ultimately manipulation.
      That’s what’s stopping me go now. I have to have the confidence that I can leave. That I won’t try but he will succeed in preventing me.

    • #113873

      But @lottieblue all the advice says you don’t tell. It’s actually the most dangerous time. Seriously. I just walked one day, no fanfare. He went out. I left. Obviously it was planned so my belongings were already elsewhere and I only need my bag. You then send a text followed up by a legal letter of your intentions and you then switch off your phone and block on all other devices/media. It is the only way to make a clean break. Do you think you could do that? Xx

    • #113882

      I honestly wish I could do it! And I fantasise about it daily 🙁 but for some it’s not so easy to do. If I rented or if my H was also named on the mortgage I’d walk right now, but I’m tied . The only way we could get a mortgage was by putting it in my name, and all bills council tax are in my name and come out of my account which he pays part into. If I left not only would I have legal obligation to keep paying the mortgage as I dont want to be black listed but also I would need to keep minimal contact with him to make sure payments are made he sometimes forgets or doesn’t pay one month etc… if we were both on the mortgage I would walk out the door but I’m too scared too as everything is in my name 🙁 … so I have to stay here until the house is sold. Its really easier said than done ;(

      • #113894

        @beautifulday, that sounds like you are in a very strong position. He can go surely? I know it could feel like a difficult and confrontational thing but surely you can get an occupation order? Its your house. I was in a much much worse position tbh, I can’t go into details obviously but managed to…
        Sell the house, buy another…? Now is a good time to sell.
        I know its not easy and I’m not saying it is. I spent years with reasons but at some point, and someone said on here, you sort of just have to metaphorically hold your breathe and jump…Its the throwing your cards up in the air and seeing what the most important things really are for you, right here and now…it could be different to last week. @WantstoHelp posted a really good post about that. SEE…I’ll try and find or you can go to her profile and see her posts, they were all really good. xx

    • #113900

      Nowhere to go. I’m scared to go to a refuge because I think it would be considered a bit dramatic in the circumstances.
      My work is based at home so I’d be walking away from my source of income.
      My parents told me not to leave and will not house me if I do.

    • #113903


      Sadly its not my house but both our house we bought together, he paid a rather large deposit but because of his credit rating we had to put it in just my name. If I had bought the home on my own before I met him it would be a different story and yes it would be my home then.

      I can’t just ask him to leave, when your married you can’t kick someone out or ask them to leave really. I’ve told him I can buy him out but ots 3k less than what he should get as that’s all I can get but he’s refused this, when I said OK the house will go up for sale he then made a big drama also. 🙁

      It feels like groundhog day everyday.
      Because we pay half each towards mortgage and bills and bought the home together he legally has right to remain in the home sadly and even if I left to go to a refuge or find family to stay with all payments still come out of my account so that would still be on my head:( so atm im still here but since being back at work spend as little time as possible at home I try to stay longer in work or take my time driving home etc its horrible way to live not wanting to go home but im getting stronger everyday and the solicitor has been talking to me about next steps x

      • #114115

        @beautifulday but you can if its Domestic Abuse…you can get them to leave….its an Occupation Order and a Non-Molestation Order. He doesn’t legally have the right to stay in the house if he is abusing you. Its not true. Have you got some other legal advice? You aren’t trapped because you have a mortgage and you’re married. Honestly, you’re really not. I know what I’m saying. Might be worth accessing some different legal advice. A lot of solicitors don’t understand domestic abuse, can you find one who specialises in it? Might give you some hope. Groundhog day is not good, you don’t need to do this forever..I promise. xx

    • #114085

      Money, that’s the main thing holding me back.

      I’m not scared of the coward. I’m “lucky” in that he isn’t very physically or sexually abusive. There have been moments but the one time I saw it coming, I turned on him and basically said (paraphrasing here) “come on then, come on, try it”. A calculated risk.

      He tries to cause guilt but honestly no one can be expected to put up with his abuse.

      I suppose embarrassment? This won’t be the first abusive situation I’ve been in. I really have appalling taste in men. Outside of this forum I wont use the word abuse – i will say “unpleasant” and “toxic” and “mean”. That’s my hang up.

      • #114471

        I can relate to this. I often call it “toxic” and have had to square up to him saying things like I will die fighting to stand up to him, but what a way to exist. Having to threaten that you will fight your abuser to the death if it means defending yourself and your child. The worst part is, THEY KNOW what they are doing.

        Deep down they know.

        As long as they think they can reel you back in, they keep upping the ante to see what you will tolerate, looking over the cliff edge to see what will make you / them go over the edge.

        I believe abusers have a chemical addiction to drama. They are chemically addicted to the rush of abuse and power and then the dopamine of making up. It’s called trauma bonding and it’s a learned behaviour from childhood. Energetically you can see it in people (my mother is another one) who exists at a frenzied energy level and which you can physically feel when you pay close attention. She is also a classic emotional abuser and n********t.

        Very often you feel energetically out of sorts around these people. You find yourself behaving and speaking in ways that are completely out of character.

        Rebelling and standing up to them goes one of two ways. One or other of you flips, serious injury occurs and police are involved, or the abused turns cold and withdraws. That is when you really see the acting out. The hammering on the door late at night, hundreds of calls, threats to kill you, themselves, a new boyfriend. It’s that point when you’re most at risk of serious harm, or giving in (as I have found).

        I think the only thing that galvanises a person to leave is maybe a pure form of anger and hatred; for what they do and what they make us feel about ourselves. I can’t say for sure as I haven’t fully left yet. I’m trying to inure myself to the prospect that he is screwing someone else. That for me is the last taboo – infidelity. So much else I can handle but not that.

    • #114122

      Hi @Sande

      Money and embarrassment were 2 my reasons too. But in the end I just couldn’t take anymore so I thought I don’t care about the money I’ve got to leave this relationship and I’ll find a way to sort the money. And that’s what I’m currently doing. I am lucky that I’m now working and can just about cover living costs for myself and my child. I think when I started earning more this was when I subconsciously realised leaving was an option and began thinking/planning about how I could survive after I left. And once I realised I could survive, now looking back it was only a matter of time. But it still took a long time to go! And I’m up to my eyeballs in debt – mainly due to extended periods of him not working and excessive spending. Getting help though with this.

      And actually I haven’t felt embarrassed that much at all. All the services I’ve encountered have been really surprisingly supportive. The hardest calls were to my family and my boss when my ex was arrested but they have been fantastic. I’ve had so much encouragement and I think a lot of family/friends/work colleagues had a good idea of what was going on and definitely that he was a pretty horrible guy to me. They were really happy I got out.

      Keep strong Sande. You will find a way when you’re ready xx

    • #114466

      On the guilt point, this is huge. My ‘bf’ has no money so that he has to ration what little food he has. He won’t boil more than one pan of pasta a day to save on electricity. When he runs out of electric he has to wear two or three jumpers and live on canned food he has picked up over time. He is that broke. So I know that part of the reason he would move on with another women so quickly would be simply for a soft place to lay his head for a while that has hot water and free food. He knows how to survive, not thrive. So there is guilt there about how poor he is (he can’t even afford a bus fare or cup of tea) and is little more than a homeless person. I feel desperately sorry for him but, why should I feel guilty for his poor decisions in life? While I was missing out on a social life studying for university exams, he was taking drugs and living like life was one long party. Yet now, he looks at me and screams at me “you’ve got your life together! I’ve got nothing!” like it’s ALL MY FAULT.

      The money thing; why spend money on a new pair of shoes for me when I can buy them for him instead? He sees it as “if you have it, you can donate it to me.”

      But he never gets up to do a day’s work to get anything for me.

      On top of that I have the physical violence. And when I get him out or ask him to leave, he accuses me of “snaking” him, betraying him, I’m “(detail removed by Moderator)” and being called a disloyal w***e and c**t.

      And yet when he is able to turn it round, I find myself looking for him in the high street or watching for his messages. The hooks into my brain are really bad. It is fear of losing them, but as has been said, with abusers you never really ‘have’ them, and fear of the unknown.

      I have deep shame that I have put up with this but my shame grows each day seeing other parents with partners who adore them and I feel profound shame at what I have accepted and that I’m living a lie. The people that do know are asking “what the hell are you thinking?”. Only the truest least judgemental people are actually offering genuine help. All two of them.

      Its a lonely place, hey?

    • #116210

      Bumping for @gettingtired and new women to the forum xx

      • #116328

        Thank you so much @iliketea, fantastic thread to read through. Can relate to sooooo much of this 🙁 xx

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